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Hi,
I need to rig barber haulers for the spinnaker on my C&C27 mk2.
Any recommendation? Size of block, snatch block on sheet or fixed one, position of the block on the rail...
Thanks,
Stéphane
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Hey there Stéphane,
Are you talking about tweakers, used to pull the spinnaker guy line into the toerail at a midships position?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
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Yes. They are useful for running the spinnaker in strong winds. By bringing the sheet closer to the boat, the spinnaker is more stable. Ref "Illustrated Sail and Rig Tuning" by Ivar Dedekam.
Stéphane
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Stephane; I use a spare Genoa snatchblock(s). Widest part of the boat and only dead down wind in strong winds - keeps the chute from oscillating and limits the potential for round-ups. Cheers.
Dean M Baldwin
Morgan "D"
Mark III - Hull 516
North Sydney, N.S.
Dean M Baldwin
Morgan "D"
Mark III - Hull 516
North Sydney, N.S.
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I'll second what Dean says about using guy blocks forward to limit oscillation. Do both sides if it's really squirrelly out (John Rousmaniere's book, Fastnet Force 10, has a nice shot of the boat he sailed that race on, showing her shortly after the start with a chicken chute and both the sheet and guy strapped down well forward - if I remember rightly he claimed that they just motored on, at least in the early stages, while others were wiping out around them).
One of the boats at our club has small blocks with cam cleats mounted on the rail both sides (similar to the "Cam cleat size 2 blocks" on this page. A continuous line runs from a block on one side that's just big enough for the sheet/guy, through the rail block and over the coach-roof to the other side. It's quick and easy to pull the guy down to the rail, and because the line is continuous, you can release the sheet, if you forget during a gybe, without someone going back to the old side. The deflection is low, so you can use a relatively low-strength block.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Barber Haulers, Tweakers, Twing Lines - they all refer to the same purpose in this application, namely controlling the location of spinnaker sheet and or guy lead by bringing it lower and closer to a midships location.
Another benefit for those of us sailing point-to-point races as opposed to windward/leewards is the ability to bring the guy down to deck level when the spin poles at or near the forestay. Gives better leverage and much easier on the stanchions!
Before our deck reconfiguration, I used to run the sheet/guy through small Harken bullet blocks, which were led through big bullets snap shackled to the rail amidships (just behind the stanchion by the aft lower shroud), then aft to a cam cleat on the combing so we could control from the cockpit. Tried a few variations on this theme but none solved the tripping hazard of running a (sometimes) loaded line across the side deck to the combing.
Now we run 40mm Harken Carbo Airblocks - #2650 at the end, through a #2646 that's snap-shackled to the rail and shock-corded to the lifeline. I used to run the tails loosely back into the cockpit but like David's suggestion of s single continuous line and think I'll try that out this year!
The Harken blocks I use can be found at:
http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/sccyspw1.eShowPage?CATALOG=409Z56LC7FV66&CATEGORY=409Z56LC4WD9M
Cheers,
Tal
Critical Path
1976 Mk III #632
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Hi Tal,
You say you used bullet blocks on the sheet and guy. I thought that the idea was to use large snatch blocks (the one that can split open so that you can put them anytime) so that in light wind they are not used. In high wind, they can be snatched on for use.
Then again, I just saw at the race last week, a boat with very small blocks on the spinnaker guy and sheet. Wind was very very light. I don't see the use of barber hauler in light winds.
Stéphane
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Hi Stephane,
What you saw in a race last week (boy, am I envious – all I saw last week were snowbanks!) is the setup I use – a dedicated twing line system. Blocks with side opening mechanisms that’re only rigged occasionally used to be more common – I had a nice set of Fredrickson blocks on a previous (bigger) boat but they were too heavy and cumbersome for a 27.
I’ve seen some other very small side-opening blocks about the size of Harken’s bullets (RWO perhaps?) but they look very light construction and I wouldn’t use them. At the other end of the spectrum, Barton make some “lightweight snatch blocks” but they’re too big and heavy for our use too – check them out at http://www.bartonmarine.com/products-snatch-blocks.asp. Ronstan used to make these nifty-looking green and red nylon snap shackles that looked like a great idea but didn’t work all that well either – I notice they’re not even in the Ronstan catalog anymore.
The advent of lightweight ball bearing blocks like the 40mm carbo’s I use add very little weight to the line when left loose (most of the time), but are ready for action whenever needed. If it’s drifting conditions we may not run the spin sheets through the blocks but still have them rigged and ready to re-run the sheets if needed.
Cheers,
Tal
Critical Path
1976 Mk III #632
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Dear David,
I do not understand your description with the continuous line.
Each side has a block in the sheet/guy and a block with clamcleat snatched on the rail. Now, where does the contiuous line runs?
Stéphane
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Dear Tal,
With the blocks always in the sheets/guys, don't you have any issue for when you douse the spinnaker?
Stéphane
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Hi Tal,
Here is a set up from Harken that I like. A light 2:1 double traveller block and then two blocks on the rail so that the control line can be brought aft to a cleat.
http://www.harken.com/uk/news/OptimiseCruiser-Racer-4.php
Stéphane
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Stéphane,
The Harken setup is very similar to the one I described, with the difference that the Harken setup has cleats for the line on the coachroof whereas the setup I described uses blocks with integral cam cleats mounted on the rail (fewer holes to drill). Also, the tweaker control line in the Harken rig appears to be individual lines for each tweaker, where my friends' setup uses a single tweaker line with the blocks on either end.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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With the continuous line, if you pull on the sheet side it will pull the guy side too. We want control of each side independantly.
Stéphane
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No, it won't pull both sides down together unless you do that deliberately. You pull in and lock the guy side with its cam cleat, then reach over and flick the new sheet side out of its cam cleat. Incidentally, it's not necessary for this to be a continuous line if you don't want that - making it continuous is a way of keeping the lines tidy and as I mentioned, it means you can take hold of and set a line without necessarily having to go to that side.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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I understand. I will try the harken system as it leads the tweaker back to the cockpit.
The block with cam is quite a bit more expensive than a single block with a separate cam.
Thanks for all these advices. I will get back to the forum once I have tried the new tweekers.
Stéphane
Mystery, Sidney BC, C&C 27 Mk II
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Barton makes a block with integral cam cleat that's probably quite a bit less expensive than Harken or Ronstan. http://www.bartonmarine.com/products-size-2-blocks.asp Something like this doesn't need to be ball-bearing.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Where can you get Barton products in Ontario?
(Thanks in advance!)
Chuck Lanning
NSC, Ottawa
Chuck Lanning
C&C 27 Mk V, Chivas & Champagne
NSC, Ottawa
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Hi Stephane,
We haven’t encountered any problems when lowering the chute with twing blocks captive in the spin sheets. The keys to a successful system are to make sure the blocks run easily, and that the line can’t run freely out of the side deck block (that’s one of the reasons I’d like to try David’s suggestion of a continuous line).
I’m not particularly keen on the Harken system you’ve found for two reasons. First off, the double purchase is overkill for our needs and the added line plus the double traveler block is too much weight for the spin sheet of a 27 to bear. Secondly, leading the line from a block on the rail to a cleat on the cabin top or coaming results in what can become a serious tripping hazard in a high traffic zone. When we simplified the deck layout several years ago, the crew and I decided the danger factor wasn’t worth the convenience of leading the line to the cockpit or the reduced cost of the parts so we converted to forward cleating.
David’s absolutely correct that the blocks don’t need to be ball-bearing for this application, but having seen Barton equipment blow up (or stop functioning as expected) I would never add a piece of it on my boat. Harken kit can get pricey, but it’s engineered elegantly and tends to work as advertised longer/better than most other brands, so personally I choose Harken products. Your mileage may vary!
Cheers,
Tal
Critical Path
1976 Mk III #632
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I'd never use a Barton block in a critical application (they used to sell them in Canadian Tire, fer crissakes), but this application strikes me as non-critical and the block I pointed to in the earlier link is way over-size for the application. Also, the current lineup seems to have been significantly improved over the rubbish of yesteryear. Not Harken quality not Ronstan, but adequate to this job if you'd like to save a few dollars.
As to Tal's tripping hazard remark, yeah,I agree - that's not a deck, it's an obstacle course, begging for someone to measure his length at the most inopportune time.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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This is not related to barber haulers, but is spinnaker specific. Can anyone please tell me what load is on the guy and sheet blocks on each quarter when it is blowing a bit? The P.O. used a pair of Harken 009 ratchet blocks, 3 inches diameter, with a S.W.L of 750 lbs, and a breaking point of 2000lbs. He was a family cruiser and probably avoided using a spinnaker in anything but gentle airs. I need to worry about racing in Lake Ontario, and nowhere can I find anything about the real stresses on our spin gear.
The Harken 009 can take a 12mm line, which fine for the 10 mm line I will be using in anything other than light airs.
Thanks.
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
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Harken's site includes generalized block-sizing recommendations here:
http://www.harken.com/rigtips/spinnaker.php
Ronstan probably has something similar, but their site isn't responding, so I can't give you a link.
The recommended ratchet turning block for the stern is the 2625, with a max. working load (lb) of 500 and a breaking load (lb) of 2000. Sounds like you can save the money you would have spent replacing these blocks.
"Amateurs always overbuild." - George Cassian (one of the original "C's" in C&C)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Thank you David, that is good news indeed. I failed to find that most useful Harken diagram, but now discover that both my blocks are ratcheted in the same direction. OMG. Much wringing of the hands of course.....
To offset that set-back mine are equipped with the correct shackles, and 'stand-up springs', so ready to go.
Overall happiness, and some $'s saved. A good morning.
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
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Hi Alan,
How's about a real-life application? I've used Harken 009's as spinnaker turning blocks on Critical Path since 1996 without a block problem (did blow up a Merriman snap shackle once, but that's another story!).
Don't worry about the ratchet direction issue. It simply means the ratchet knob thingy's on the top of one block and the bottom of the other - it's never been an issue for us!
Cheers,
Tal
Critical Path
1976 Mk III #632
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This is akin to the terrible dilemma faced by people whose stairways only go up. Many find that the problem can be solved by painting down-arrows on one side, or for the well-heeled, fitting custom carpets patterned with down-arrows on the proper side. In your case, you might try turning the block around so the ratchet arrow points in the appropriate direction. This is simple enough that a 12-year-old boy can do it. Of course this may entail putting up with a 12-year-old boy, but the operation is not time-consuming, so you can quickly kick the little brute off your boat before your tolerance expires.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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