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I just bought "Risque" last weekend from a good friend. Now I have to sell my boat (Tanzer 22), so Risque will be on the hard for a while yet.
Other than window replacement, I don't have any pressing issues to deal with on Risque. I crewed on this boat for several years for Wednesday night and weekend races so I'm pretty familiar with her, which kind of brings me to my question. On my Tanzer, handling the headsail is pretty straightforward because even though the #1 is quite big relative to the size of the boat, it's nothing like the #1 on Risque. I do want to continue racing, but my concern is that for cruising with my family, headsail handling will be a big problem. I can handle the sail myself by going to the foredeck, but I'm worried that my wife & daughters could end up being overwhelmed by handling the boat from the cockpit while I do this, if the wind picks up quickly.
So, I'm trying to learn more about roller furling. My fear with roller furling is that the extrusion that goes up the forestay will compromise the performance of the headsail for racing. I know that theoretically at least it will have an effect (see "Aero-hydrodynamics of Sailing" - C. Marchaj) but wonder whether this will be noticeable in real-world racing conditions. Similarly I wonder about the increased windage aloft when fully furled. Also, our Wednesday night races are on a fairly short windward-leeward course, sometimes with an offset. For white sail racing, the headsail would stay up, fully unfurled, but if I were to race flying sail - is it possible to furl the sail as I round the windward mark, or is it better to take the drum off in advance and just drop the sail? How do either of these operations compare vs. just dropping a hanked-on genoa?
Also, if anyone has good experiences with furlers they'd recommend, or bad experiences I should stay clear from, I'd like to hear them. I read previous posts and it seems that generally there haven't been any concerns mentioned with the furlers themselves but some installation-related issues need to be considered regardless of furler type.
Allan Bray
"Risque", Sail # 525
1984 C&C 27 Mk V
Allan Bray
"Risque", Sail # 525
1984 C&C 27 Mk V
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Hi Allan.
I'm not a furling genius and have only used one once but through study I have come to understand that where you gain convenience with the roller, you loose in performance. You will have to have your headsail cut to fit the new luff length which may compromise it's shape but more importantly you have less sail. You touched on aerodynamics and I'm not sure how much worse off you would be compared to hoisting on a tuff luff extrusion.
Have fun with you new boat, I can't wait to get mine wet!
Brent Driedger
S/V Wild Rover
C&C 27 MkV #15
Brent Driedger
S/V Wild Rover
C&C 27 MkV #15
;
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You will not go as fast with furling. It is harder to tension the forestay by tightening the backstay, so you will have more sag, and a fuller sail. In 10 - 14 knots that wiull really hurt. Also, the tack will be raised, so the sail will not sweep the deck as it shouyld, and you will lose sail area on the foot.
One altenative is to go with a hank-on sail. If you are sailing with the familily, if you just dump the halyard the sail will just fall to the deck.
Jim
Distant Thunder
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There are different furlers. I don't have one, but before you write them all off, you should check-out the differecnes between say the regular Harken and the better Harken Mk IV (with dual grooves in the foil). Some have the removable drum, and some just have the drum lower and better placed for a lower tack.
In terms of keeping headstay tension, the extrusion usually just fits over the headstay -- the tension is in the headstay, not the furler. You should have no trouble, if the unit is set-up properly, putting tension on the headstay.
Worst case, you have an old #2 that you leave on the furler, and come Wednesday night on the way out to the race course you unfurl it and drop it, and get the better racing sail onto the deck and ready to go.
Cheers,
Chuck
Chuck Lanning
NSC, Ottawa
Chuck Lanning
C&C 27 Mk V, Chivas & Champagne
NSC, Ottawa
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Hey Allan,
Congratulations! How does it feel to be Commodore of your own little fleet? Nerve-wracking, ain't it?
I have raced both with and without roller furling. My current 27 is equipped with Harken roller furling and I would not part with it. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the dual-groove luff extrusions are really no different in size and performance than using a Tuff-Luff foil over the headstay. The benefit of having a luff extrusion is that it gives you a much cleaner and smoother edge than using hanks. I still have full control over my luff tension and I still use my backstay adjuster to control headstay sag. I run two genoas: one for cruising/pleasure sailing and another for racing. The cruising genoa is pure dacron (no laminates), has a protective UV strip along the foot and leech, and runs from the drum to almost the top of the luff extrusion (as high as the spinner can go). The drum itself is positioned about 6 or 7 inches off of the deck, which helps keep the cruising sale clear of the water when heeled and allows me to peek beneath it for a view to leeward.
My racing genoa is another story. It is a deck-sweeper, reaching from the tack fitting at the very bottom of the forestay to the very top of the luff extrusion, which means that we do not give up any sail size to any of our competitors. The luff of the sail does have to fit around the drum, but the distortion is so minimal that it has no discernible impact (my unit is too old to have a split drum). Now that I have inboard tracks, I point better than most of my fleet going to windward (even the other guys with inboard tracks). However, the racing genoa is a laminated sail and I would never try to furl it. Indeed, we cannot furl it, as the luff is too long for us to use the spinner for hoisting the sail. This means that in order to downsize the headsail, someone has to go forward and literally pull down the genoa. The plus side is that the dual-groove headstay, and dual halyards, means that we can haul up the number 2 before taking down the number 1.
I have been racing with my wife, daughters and mother as crew for more than two decades now. From the time they were about 10 (currently 17 and 19), my daughters have had no problem about going forward to pull down the headsail and snap bungee cords over it. My wife has never had a problem doing it, even in the worst squalls. After a season or two of practice all of them, including my mother (currently 86), have always been able to hold head to wind while I worked on the foredeck. Teach them, trust them, and keep your cool is my motto.
From my time running a retail chandlery, I can attest that the two top brands for furlers are Harken and Selden Furlex, with both brands having first-rate quality and performance. The Harken units are possibly more racing-oriented, but the Furlex package comes with literally everything you need for installation. Harken forces you to pick and choose among bits and pieces, which can run up the bill.
Anyhow, I would not want to go back to living without furling. Maybe this could be an opportunity to have the old genoa recut for furling and have a new, dedicated, racing genoa made up. It all depends on how important racing performance is to you. Best of luck!
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
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At the risk of asking a question which displays my ignorance, ... ,I will anyway.
With a self furling sail unfurled, how do you run up a second sail before taking down the first sail? On my boat the spinner could not come down if the second sail is up as it rides over the dual groove of the luff extrusian. So to do this you must be using the furling sail without the spinner?
Thanks.
That is correct. While racing, we leave the spinner at the bottom of the luff extrusion, sitting on top of the drum. This is the practice of most of the racers at our club.
If you already have a furling sail set up on your headfoil, then downsizing is usually just a matter of rolling up part of the sail, although that does do horrible things to the sail shape. For racing, where optimum shape and size are key, most racers bypass the furling functions entirely. The double-groove headstay is one of the reasons that Harken gear became the favourite choice of racers around the world, since it allows for easier headsail changes without having to power down in between. Still, it sucks to have to keep popping off the feeder casting in order to remove your spinner from use or bring it back into use, as you alternate between racing and pleasure sailing. Always have a spare screw!
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Last edited by (2009-04-15 02:57:01)
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
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A spare screw, and one of these locking screwdrivers.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Thanks everybody for your feedback. I'm still conflicted about this. When I cleaned out the storage unit that held the contents of the boat this past weekend, I found that among the sails was a brand new mylar #1 genoa (with hanks). I'm not sure I could bring myself to do anything to this sail, even if it meant just adapting it to work on a foil.
Probably the best I could do is sail it as it is with my family and see how it works out. Maybe I'm making too big a deal of it right now.
Allan Bray
"Risque", Sail # 525
1984 C&C 27 Mk V
Allan Bray
"Risque", Sail # 525
1984 C&C 27 Mk V
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Sounds like a sensible approach. However, if you do eventually decide to go with roller furling, the conversion from hanks to a luff rope and luff tape is no big deal. Just ask any sailmaker.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
Offline
Alan,
I belong to BYC and bought Larry's C&C27 MarkV. You will have absoluetly no problem sailing this boat. Trust me. I use to have a Tanzer 26 and the weather helm was unbelievable. I sail my C&C27 MarkV single handed most of the time and even in a blow it only takes two fingers and a thumb on the tiller. Come and see me at the Club and I will take you out since your new boat will be on the hard for awhile.
Brian Lagerquist "Redeemed" at BYC
Engine installed works great see Black Arts. New Engine for Redeeded. The following is the original post........I have a C&C27 Mark V which was brought up from Maryland. I believe the Yanmar 1GM10 was exposed to salt water. The engine is very noisy, vibrates more than I like (have folding prop and know when it is open fully) and to me is not very environmentally friendly. I have just purchase a Beta Marine BZ482 (13.9HP) which is built in England. The engine is ;about the same size and weights a little less. Question: Does anyone have any experience with re-powering their boat. If so, would you be willing to share your experience with me.
Brian - BYC - "Redeemed" 1985 Mark V
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My MK V (shoal keel version) with roller furling has so much weather helm it is hard to hold at times. Looks like I need to take rig tuning or sail setting lessons from you. How much rake do you have? Mine is the original North (Harken) furler - don't know if I can even adjust it without getting forstay recut? Any comments or advice you may have for me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Barry Oasis 1987 Mk V
Hi Allan,
I have had a Schaefer System 1100 Roller Furler on my Mk 1 for the past seven years. I race the boat just about every week during the season and never had an issue with it except that once, a screw worked its way loose. I called the company about loosing the screw and I could not believe the level of customer service I received. I have friends who have Harkens along with a few other brands. I can say that they are not as pleased with their system as I am. First, I recommend a furling sytem and second, I recommend Schaefer.
Thanks,
Greg Reese
Billerina #33