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I am in the market for a C&C 27 and have some questions as a result of my initial search for a boat. I have read the C&C 27 Association website's page on the performance and physical differences between the four models of the boat but have some questions that were not answered.</SPAN>
</SPAN>1. </SPAN>I have seen some models with spinnakers and most without. Are all the boats outfitted for spinnakers (i.e. spinnaker rigging on the mast and deck) or are spinnakers restricted to certain models? Pros/Cons?</SPAN>
</SPAN>2. When going from the Mk I and II to III and IV, how big a difference does the extra 6" of cockpit make? With the traveler going from all the way aft and the possibility of the wheel steering, how does that affect cockpit space?</SPAN>
</SPAN>3. </SPAN>How about the significant difference in the rudder design, what affects does that have?</SPAN>
</SPAN>4. Are there any weak areas of these boats that I should pay particular attention to when surveying for purchase? (I did read the responses from the archived '84 Mk III message.)</SPAN>
</SPAN>Thanks for your time and responses, Dave.</SPAN>
I tried to answer your questions a week ago and it seems that the site did not take it, so here we go. All 27's come with a spinnaker halyard and that is usually about it. The only real cost you will have is a spinnaker and a pole, the rest is easy and not that expensive. You will need uphaul and down haul, a track for the mast and a couple of blocks. New spinnaker is around 2600.00 canadian at quatum sails. 6" in the cocpit make a big difference especially if you plan on having a wheel. On the MK1 & MK11 the mainsheet traveller is aft and would not be good for a wheel, on a MK111 & MK1V the traveller is just aft of the cabin hatch and leaves you lots of room. If you plan on doing nothing but cruising with a family and small kids than the MK1 & MK11 are your best bet. If you plan on cruising and racing then the MK111 & MK1V are the best all around boat to do both. The rudder used for the wheel works great with the wheel, the rudder used for the tiller is smaller and easier to handle with a tiller. When looking at the 27 you should ask if any deck work has been done, if not be sure that your surveyor has a gauge to check for a wet deck. I hope this has helped you with your decission.
We have a 1980 C&C 27 III. We thoroughly enjoy the boat, but our biggest complaint is the size of the cockpit. Although I like having the wheel, I very often wish we had a tiller. We mostly cruise, and the wheel makes for a very small cockpit when at anchor or dock. We constantly have to climb over the cockpit seats to get to the wheel. As I said before, I like having the wheel, but it is something worth considering.
BR,
Neil
I have a Trapper 500, which has the MK I rudder design with tiller. Under sail the steering loads are light, but under power, quite heavy, and if you let go the rudder immediatly goes hard to port.
Does the later rudder behave similarly?
Frank Marsden
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I wouldn't describe the load as heavy, but it's definitely there.
If you leave the tiller, the boat immediately begins making a tight circle. I prefer to think of this as a 'feature' rather than as a 'bug', because given enough room for a circle, the boat tends to stay on the same patch of water more reliably than when stopped. When single-handing the boat, I have several times found myself having to make changes to the fender or line setup before approaching the wharf. Allowing the boat to describe slow circles while I do this is a better option than trying to stay put while stopped.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
I am in the market for a C&C 27 and have some questions as a result of my initial search for a boat. I have read the C&C 27 Association website's page on the performance and physical differences between the four models of the boat but have some questions that were not answered.</SPAN>
</SPAN>1. </SPAN>I have seen some models with spinnakers and most without. Are all the boats outfitted for spinnakers (i.e. spinnaker rigging on the mast and deck) or are spinnakers restricted to certain models? Pros/Cons?</SPAN>
No, you really get nothing but places to put the gear you'll need. However I do have spare gear for sale if you're interested :-) (MKIII)</SPAN>
</SPAN>2. When going from the Mk I and II to III and IV, how big a difference does the extra 6" of cockpit make? With the traveler going from all the way aft and the possibility of the wheel steering, how does that affect cockpit space?</SPAN>
A lot believe it or not. Even with the extra space I prefer a tiller over a wheel. The only good thing about a wheel is you can use an autopilot and still access the cockpit hatches. I own one with a wheel and whish I had the tiller instead. I've sailed on both.</SPAN>
</SPAN>3. </SPAN>How about the significant difference in the rudder design, what affects does that have?</SPAN>
Not sure on this one, but the bigger spade rudder is said to be more forgiving when the boat starts to stall.</SPAN>
</SPAN>4. Are there any weak areas of these boats that I should pay particular attention to when surveying for purchase? (I did read the responses from the archived '84 Mk III message.)</SPAN>
Lots, as with any boat. Window leaks, leaks around the teak grab rails. Loose keel bolts cracks around the chain plates and pulpits. Mostly minor stuff you would expect to find on any boat. The serious stuff that I've seen on more than one boat is the main bulkhead delaminating fron the cabin top. Also if the water leaks go undetected long enough the deck could delaminate in time. Also make sure the surveyor or you fill up all the tanks onboard then dry the bilge and wait for leaks. All tank leaks can be fixed but it might costs hundreds to do it. Just the holding tank will cost you about $500USD to replace and 4 weeks to do it. Another thing skipped by lots of surveyors is matching shaft RPM to engine RPM. The atomic 4 uses a cone clutch that needs periodic adjustment. Simple enough to use a strobe to do it but almost never done. Replace the water pump impellor every couple years just to be safe. All in all these are far better built boats than most used ones out there. feel free to contact me if you have other questions.</SPAN>
</SPAN>
John</SPAN>
C&C 27 MKIII 1976</SPAN>
</SPAN>Thanks for your time and responses, Dave.</SPAN>
Dave,
Thank you for the comment.
I have just made an adjustable strut, which is the remains of a dead (Navico) tiller pilot, to see if that will help, will try it out this weekend..
I am often single handed.
The outer harbour I use most frequently (Weymouth, Dorset, England) is fairly narrow, busy with yachts, dinghies, fishing boats and rowing boats ferrying holiday makers across.
The concept of a sudden hard turn to port is simply not acceptable.
My last boat (Hustler 25.5) didn't do this, but gave enough time to put out a fender, etc.
The fundamental difference between the boats, which are quite similar in hull shape, both with balanced rudders, is that the balancing area on the C&C design is high, and in the prop wash, whereas the Hustler (Holman & Pye) has a higher aspect ratio rudder, which the balancing area at the tip.
Both boats are remarkably similar under sail. Impeccable.
Hence my query abut the later, higher aspect ratio rudder.
If I were to make a change to the rudder, I would rather fit a recognised design than cobble up one myself.
Is the later rudder available?
Frank Marsden
Offline
I am answering Frank's rudder questions in a new post, reserving this one for discussions of 'things to watch out for'.
This is a bit of a 'me-too' post, inasmuch as I want to reinforce "John C&C 27 MKIII 1976's" remarks about decks and main bulkheads. While searching for my own boat, I walked the deck of a 27 whose deck was so delaminated that the stanchions leaned in to greet you as you stepped on the adjacent deck. Water had clearly entered via the handrails, which were so loose as to be wobbly. Other than that, it was a great boat. (I'm only being semi-facetious - everything else was in good condition, but the owner obviously had a massive blind spot here. It would be a good purchase if you went in with your eyes open and the price were adjusted appropriately.)
The other zinger I saw was a boat with a cracked main bulkhead (don't know about the delamination issue - I thought the deck was keyed in, not tabbed). The broker said that this is a common but infrequently noticed failure - a fracture in the ply on the starboard side of the opening, where the ply is at its least vertical thickness. The teak finishing boards hide the failure, so you have to have a good look at that area to see if there has been any movement.
As to tanks, etc., when you do the suggested check, don't get too spooked by a "leak". We had problems for the first year that had us semi-convinced of a cracked tank. Turned out to be a series of minuscule leaks caused by all-but-imperceptibly loose hose clamps. As to hoses - we have replaced every one in the boat except the drinking water hose. That has probably cost $500 to $600 Cdn., but the purchase survey condemned the 20-year-old drain and fuel hoses, the head hoses failed the wet-rag test three years later and the five-year survey nailed the exhaust hose. Rebuilding the Whale pump and replacing the hose (smooth-bore with plastic ribbing) cost C$120. (All costs are materials alone.)
My insurer has told me that two 27's in Ontario have lost their masts to rigging failures (again, this stuff is 25-35 yr. old so it's no surprise even with fresh water and a short season). A forestay is C$90 and a set of lowers is C$400. If you're still interested, I'll let you know how much uppers and a backstay are next spring.
You tell yourself you aren't going to fuss over stuff and 'oh, I can live with that', but when you have enough mosquito bites, you start to scratch.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2003-08-29 00:38:39)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
No, I don't have a problem with the rudder moving. Under power or sail, the rudder does not move appreciably when left unattended.
Neil
No, I don't have a problem with the rudder moving. Under power or sail, the rudder does not move appreciably when left unattended.
Neil
Neil.
Which rudder do you have?
Frank
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Frank,
I have the high aspect ratio spade rudder (not the scimitar).
Neil
Neil
Is a drawing of the high aspect ratio rudder available?
I think that I should replace the scimitar rudder on my boat.
Frank
Offline
Dave,
I have a 1978 Mark III - it was love at first sight and 6 years later I am still growing into it. I also have a main bulkhead that has delaminated from the cabin top just above and a little starboard of the passage to the head. Some day I will fix it - it has never been a problem. The only other problem areas I have noticed are spider cracking around the lifeline stantions that get the most abuse. I have a tiller and would not trade it for a wheel. My rudder requires constant pressure under power to avoid turning hard to port. I don't find this a problem - it is a simple matter to secure a line to the tiller ( include a few inches of shock cord) and cleat it off to port. This allows me to maintain heading long enough to go forward and rig the anchor or take my wife a drink as she lounges on the foredeck. I would not necessarily be scared away by an Atomic 4. Mine is original and very dependable. I hope to keep it going until the electric/fuel cell retrofit becomes practical.
The improvements that have given me the most bang for the buck are running the main halyard, single line reef lines, and outhaul to the cockpit. Singlehanding is a breeze. Also - it was a great day when I finally gave up my annual attempts to fix/tune/fuss with my Kenyon alcohol stove. I realized that the % of time on board that I spent cooking was negligable. I made removable cutting board/counter top to fill the hole. This opened up a great volume of storage. I now have an L.L. Bean two burner propane that I set up when I need it.
The two things on the top of my wish list: Dodger and a sturdier stern rail.
Good luck with your search,
Chuck
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Chuck,
I have made a strut from an unseviceable tiller pilot to hold the rudder ahead, but that has the disadvantage that I cannot access the starboard cockpit locker at the very time you need to.
Thank you for the realisation that a strop to port is all that is needed, I will adopt your idea, if I may.
Does your boat have the scimitar rudder?
Mine is a Trapper 500, which I have had on the water for five weeks, and the more I sail it the more I like it.
The boat is enduringly popular in the UK, universally praised, and has sailed the Triangle race, which goes from Torquay to Ireland, Brittany and back.
Frank Marsden
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i just purchased a IV and i noticed when out of the water that the prop is located to the port side of the rudder. no matter what you do, you will always be fighting that. if you want i can email you a picture looking from the stern that shows this exactly.
I would assume that the prop is offset to portspecifically to counteract the tendency to swing to port.
Frank Marsden
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I would assume that the prop is offset to portspecifically to counteract the tendency to swing to port.
Frank Marsden
Offline
"The other zinger I saw was a boat with a cracked main bulkhead (don't know about the delamination issue - I thought the deck was keyed in, not tabbed). The broker said that this is a common but infrequently noticed failure - a fracture in the ply on the starboard side of the opening, where the ply is at its least vertical thickness. The teak finishing boards hide the failure, so you have to have a good look at that area to see if there has been any movement."
oh-oh. i am just about to make an offer on a really lovely, clean, smart looking '73 MKII. however, i was going to let the surveyor explain that crack on the port side bulkhead tab, up in the top corner. but now i wonder if i should even bother paying a surveyor if this problem is known to be serious. any one know what a thin crack in the corner fibreglass where the bulkhead meets the port wall? is it fixable? does it need fixing? should i go ahead with the offer? i'm new to all this and this will be my first boat. it's also the first boat where clean and loved meets my low price. (i'm paying $1,850 or so). could anyone elaborate? soon? help?
robert.
"it's also the first boat where clean and loved meets my low price. (i'm paying $1,850 or so)"
They do say that when a deal is too good to be true, it usually isn't - and this one is a real stinker. If you are contemplating paying $1850 for a boat that should sell for a sum between $12,000 and $20,000, _and_ by your own admission you are inexperienced with boats, then you absolutely MUST engage a surveyor if you intend to go ahead.
A "thin crack in the corner fibreglass where the bulkhead meets the port wall" could be a cosmetic flaw that has alarmed the owner into this fire-sale price, but this is one of the most heavily stressed parts of the boat. That "thin crack" may be evidence of any number of serious problems, from rot in the bulkhead to the boat having been dropped or squeezed hard in a collision that has been cosmetized over. At this price, I suspect the existence of other problems as well (take a look at Black Arts and you'll see how complicated and costly repairs can be).
Can the problems be fixed? Probably, but boatyards are full of boats abandoned by inexperienced purchasors who either tried to fix a serious problem and abandoned the attempt, or who realized they didn't have the money needed to engage a pro. Get a surveyor (a real accredited one, and not just some buddy who thinks he knows a lot about boats).
"I'm new to all this and this will be my first boat." How new? New to sailing or new to boat ownership? I suspect the first, as the price of this boat isn't setting off alarm bells for you (here, the mast alone is worth $1,000 - $1,200).
If I'm right, I suggest you back off and think hard about starting at this level. Many people like the idea of sailing more than sailing itself, and it's essential to get comfortable on a sailboat before you start running around on a larger keelboat. I do know a couple who pulled off the sailing dream - they started with a 35-footer, moved up to 42 and sailed around the world, but they are the exception. Frequently, people who start with too large a boat take longer than they should to learn to sail properly. The price of the inevitable little mistakes tends to be onerous rather than annoying. The process of learning overwhelms the pleasure and they drop out.
Put your $1850 back in the bank and spend a few years getting comfortable with the sport and with boats. You don't say where you are but look for a club in the area where people are looking for crew for races - even if you don't intend to race, it's a great way to learn how to sail in good weather and bad. Take an adult sailing course. Join a club and sail with experienced sailors (in Toronto, for instance, many growth-minded clubs have extended their adult courses by purchasing one or more dinghies or keelboats that you can sail with others as you develop your skills). Then go buy a 27. You'll in all likelihood be happier and the process will cost you less, in every sense.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
What a great response, thank you for your time. I wish I too, had taken more time to review my post but I was being called by my wife and I just had time to hit 'send' or I would have realized that the price I quoted needed another zero. I meant 18 thousand. So sorry. But apart from your alarm at the low price (I WISH the boat I'm looking at was going for 18 hundred), the rest of the answer made a lot of sense. Let me elaborate a little.
I'm middle aged and I have been dinghy sailing for three years, and I just returned from a teach & sail with a CYA instructor, cruising the gulf islands for 5 wet, cold days and I loved every moment. I passed with high marks and high praise and 'very capable skipper' entered in my CYA log book. I REALLY want a boat, but I live so far from Granville Island or Jericho Beach to hang out with boaters and get on a crew. There is a marina in Port Moody which is close to my home in Maple Ridge, B.C. and I intend to moor my boat there. The boat I am looking at is in very good shape. I took lots of 'what to look for in a cruiser' type books and papers and I poked and prodded and asked the right questions. Of all the boats I have looked at, this one is clean, straight, cared for. However, there is this crack at the tabbing in the top port side of the main bulkhead that seperates the head from the saloon, and it's visible from the saloon side. It runs down about 12 to 18 inches. There is a similar line on the starboard side, but it's only about 3 or 4 inches. I guess my fear is that the boat has, as you describe, been hit, squashed or is otherwise weakened. My problem is, is this crack usual in the older C&C 27's? If it is, I have no problem paying the big bucks for a surveyor. If any of you know that this crack is a major problem, I will indeed put my 18K back in the bank and move on. I really love the boat but I'm not foolish enough to buy the first one that makes my heart flutter. There's a lot of small cruisers out there.
Again, sorry about the stupid error, and thanks so much for your comprehensive answer. I hope I find a great 27 so I can enjoy the support and camaraderie of the owners of other 27's. Now I will proof read this!
Robert.
Dave,
I have a late "tall rig" Mark I, and based on many years of sailing all kinds of boats as an instructor, frequent cruiser, and sometimes race crew; I will offer my probably very biased comments.
1. Unless you plan to race, buy a "genniker". Much better and easier to handle with less gear: forget the pole, uphaul, etc.,etc. If you insist, I will pull my pole, rigging, and two nice spinnakers out of storage and sell to you so I can buy a genniker, flasher, or whatever the particular sailmaker calls them.
2. The tiller and rear sheeting - in my opinion, eat up all the cockpit space other than for two people to be semi-comfortable if they are agile. As I live in the tropics (Galveston Bay, Texas), a full cockpit Bimini will be my next and very important upgrade. I am moving my mainsheet to the coachroof with double-end sheeting. This will free the whole rear of the cockpit for comfort. Due to the high feedback of the unbalanced and poorly designed scimitar rudder, I resorted to a longer tiller than standard untill I can replace the rudder with a high-aspect balanced design.
3. See above. Anyone who thinks the Mark I scimitar rudder is seaworthy or adequate in anything over 10 knts needs to go sail a lot of other keelboats. It loads up just about like a Sunfish. The harder the wind blows the stronger you need to be, or have to sacrifice sail trim.
4. This Forum has done an excellent job of covering this issue.
One other: my "best-rated" improvement on this boat was roller furling. My wife was so happy she told me she did not care how much it cost and in fact did not want to know!
Happy sailing - the C&C 27 is a fine sailing boat and really has nice asthetic looks - not to mention she is FAST!
Warren Smith
Serendipity
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