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We'll be taking delivery of our '81 MK 3 in a few weeks and one of the first things we'll want to do is install inboard genoa tracks. Comments on any of the following would be appreciated.
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<LI>Where should we position the track? I've seen some tracks running along the edge of the cabin, and others parallel to the gunwale and a couple of inches out from the coaming at the back, and quite a bit out from the cabin at the front. Does anybody have any dimensions, or photos? Also, should we use one track for the #1, #2 and #3 (that would mean one less slided/block) or should we do it in two sections? Pros and cons of each?</LI>
<LI>What type of track should we use? Is 1" heavy enough. or should we go to 1.25"? Any recommended supplier for the track and/or slider and block? Anybody have used equipment that they'd like to sell?</LI>
<LI>Mounting: I'm thinking of drilling 3/4" holes from below, filling with resin and re-drilling. Is that the best way? I was also thinking of using a 1" strip of 3/16' Aluminum as a backing plate. Comments?</LI>
<LI>Finally, on the inside, what do you do about the liner? Do you cut it away with a Dremel, or just bolt over top of it?</LI></UL>
Look forward to any suggestions or comments.
Hugh Morrin
"Blue Zulu"
MK 3, #894, Nepean SC
<A href="mailto:frank12345@magma.ca">frank12345@magma.ca</A> (An alias, which I can change if I get too much spam!)
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Have done, will do. Hugh
Last edited by (2004-04-16 13:15:06)
Hugh Morrin
Blue Zulu, C&C 27 Mk III, #894
Nepean Sailing Club, www.nsc.ca/cc27
President and back-up webmaster, C&C 27 Association
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I had a C&C 24 where the jib sheet tracks were owner installed and bolted right through the deck and inner liner. For backing plates, large washers were used. The result was a "squishy" attachment with bolts that loosened progressively. Every time I tightened </SPAN>up the bolts, some brown water oozed out around the bolts. Not a pretty picture. I had lots of fun with that boat, and there were no mechanical failures, but I assume you wouldn't want this for your boat.
The C&C 27 Mk V came standard with three separate jib tracks each side, for what that is worth. A short one on the forward cabin, a long one on the deck beside the cabin, and another short one on the coaming.
I would talk to a sailmaker before installing the new tracks. The boat was designed for toe rail leads for the jib sheets and I assume the sails you have were cut for that arrangement. Inboard sheeting may sound like a good idea, but you need to get the tracks in the right place and you may even need the jibs re-cut to have the correct sail shape when sheeted differently. This change could harm the peformance of your boat more than it helps if the sails don't set right. And don't throw away your snatch blocks; you'll still want to use them to sheet the jib on the rail downwind. By the way, an absolutely fabulous book about sails, sail shape, and trim is "Maximum Sail Power" by Brian Hancock, Nomad Press. This should be a must-read for anyone contemplating a major rigging change on their boat.
Best of luck.
Mounting: after many adventures in drilling holes in the deck, backing them up with tape and then filling the hole, only to find that (once again) the epoxy has loosened the tape and run through, I have learned to do the following, which I used to install my own 1" genoa tracks:
- Lay masking tape over the work area, putting a ridge in the lower edge to trap excess epoxy that would otherwise run down the deck. Lay down several lines of it over the track and adjacent area, overlapping like shingles. Rub it down hard.
- With a bit about twice the diameter of the fastener, carefully drill down through the upper deck skin and balsa to just kiss the lower skin, then install a drill stop on the bit and drill everything else to that thickness.
- Dig out as much balsa as can be reached with an awl and vacuum clean. Attach an L-shaped piece of heavy wire to the drill, insert the end in the hole and run. Start with a piece of wire with a short leg on it, then go for a longer one. Vacuum the pulverised balsa out of the cavity.
- Using a syringe (amazing how much hassle this eliminates) fill the hole with unthickened epoxy, then go do something else for an hour or so. Again with syringe, fill the once-again empty hole with cabosil-thickened epoxy. Wipe up any mess carefully (epoxy turns yellow on gelcoat) and go home.
- Come back and drill fastener-sized holes through the middle of your filled hole, right through the deck and where applicable, through the liner. Remove all the masking tape, taking with it all spills, smears, etc.
- From below, drill upward through the liner at the hole locations with a hole saw slightly larger than the largest fender washer you can find for your fasteners. Be super careful to drill only the liner, not the lower skin of the deck. This is a hideously messy job, not to be contemplated if cushions are in. Wear eye protection and a dust mask.
- Dry fit the whole arrangement. Lay masking tape along the track about 1/16 of an inch away. If you plan on covering the holes inside, mark the machine screws for length and cut them (they probably will be the same length).
- Put it all together. I used 3M 5200 as caulk. You need someone on deck to hold the screw head while you fit and tighten the washer and nut. I use nylock nuts; they are reasonably priced if you buy a box from a place like Noah's (see Links & Contacts). It is really helpful to have an electric drill fitted with a socket-holder to speed running up the nuts. Make the nuts snug, not tight.
- Next day, the caulk will have firmed up. With a matte knife or similar, slit the caulk that has squeezed out close to the track, then pull off the tape. Voila, clean deck without endless wiping with solvents. With an assistant holding the screw heads firmly, ensure that all nuts are well set.
- Install all the remaining gear. Install a strip of white plexiglass over the holes drilled in the headliner.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Hugh? Hugh Morrin?? Grew up in Kingston??? If so, didn't we race against each other in Junior Squadron, Sharks, etc.???? In any case, congrats on the new boat! You must be pumped!!
We're in the midst of a deck recoring on Critical Path (1976 Mark III #632) - check out the thread titled "Inboard Tracks for Blade or #3" for more details. The Path has inboard tracks which are appropriate length and position for foresails from 140% (a big #2) to 163% (class max). I recall my sailmaker deciding that their location provides appropriate sheeting angles for a boat of our vintage & style! The tracks are 42" long & 1" profile - just fine for the 27. Check out the pics in the photo album entitled "Critical Path refit 2004" found at:
<A href="http://www.snapfish.com/">www.snapfish.com</A>, access using email "<A href="mailto:talwolf@hotmail.com">talwolf@hotmail.com</A>" & password "critpath".
I'm adding 2' x 1" inboard tracks for the blade now too. I got a 4' length from my rigger at The Rigging Shoppe in Scarboro for $45.
We'll be going the overdrill, fill, & redrill route when it comes time to reattach the deck hardware, & I won't subject my new deck to the less-than-optimal "oversized washers will be good enough" approach. We're cutting small windows in the liner where required to install aluminum backing plates along the entire length of track. The openings in the liner will only be noticeable when sitting down in the main cabin (remember they're tucked up under the side deck), & we plan to finish them off with either white plexiglass or thin wood covers. Easily removeable too, so future maintenance isn't a pain (& there will ALWAYS be maintenance involved with inboard tracks!). Unfortunately, all the track pieces span bulkheads &/or knees, so each length will be supported by multiple backing plates on either side of the obstruction.
I'd hazard a guess that a single length of track isn't the best choice for old-style 27's. A single straight piece would compromise the sheeting position for at least 1 of your sails (likely too tight an angle for the #2), & would require drilling even more holes into your deck. Keep in mind this comes from a guy who's removing some 25+ bits & pieces of miscellaneous deck hardware (& 3 winches!) that won't go back on after the work's done! If there's a way to keep the number of holes down, just do it!
Critical Path (ex Tiny Dancer ex Hibernator) came with milk crates full of old hardware, so I've got sliders & blocks for all 4 tracks. If you're not racing much I'm sure 2 sliders & blocks that you moved from track to track as required would work just fine.
David Weatherston's routine for drilling & filling is elegant & will no doubt ensure a near perfect job. I'm not quite as persnickety, but manage to get the job done without too much mess. On the other hand, I bet David feels a whole bunch more satisfied when he's done than I do! The explanation & process are without fault, but I do have one question for David. Do you line up the screw heads in a fore-and-aft configuration or prefer side-to-side? <IMG src="http://www.cc27association.com/f3/toast/emoticons/icon_mrgreen.gif" border=0>
Drill from above, don't squash the liner - make cutouts for washers (argh! washers!) or backing plates, & 3/16" x 1" aluminum is thicker but not as wide as I'd like...
Inboard tracks will benefit *any* foresail's upwind performance, regardless of original cut & current condition. Where it'll really pay dividends is when you get that new carbon #1 made-to-order!
Cheers,
Tal Wolf ../)../)..
Critical Path, 1976 Mark III #632
Last edited by (2004-04-14 08:34:36)
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There are now two pictures of Legacy's tracks in Black Arts. If anyone has other suggestions, please send them in.
> [The] routine for drilling & filling is elegant & will no doubt ensure a near perfect job.
My method (which I learned from Colin Clark at marine supplier North National) is not just for appearance; you preserve more of the fibreglass layers, which is where your strength is, it ensures that the surrounding balsa and laminate is wetted out, and it gives better assurance that there are no voids or other weak spots, which you can get if you drill all the way through, and then use epoxy so thick it won't run out the bottom hole.
> The explanation & process are without fault, but I do have one question for David. Do you line up the screw heads in a fore-and-aft configuration or prefer side-to-side?
In this instance, I had to use Philips-head screws, which I set at 45 degrees as this arrangement is more tolerant of slight misalignment than others. When it comes to slot screws, thwartships screw-heads are the province of big-endians and other riff-raff. Real men align slot screw-heads to the flow of cosmic power, fore-&-aft.
Incidentally, before I settled on super-sized fender washers, I attempted to use continuous aluminum strip as a backing plate, but the headliner is tacked to the deck with putty, so it's virtually impossible to slide anything in there.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
">Thanks David & Tal! (Yup Tal, same Hugh Morrin that raced out of KYC in the late 70's, early 80's, and many regattas since. Time flies!)
Lots of good advice. As we say in aviation, "Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself!" I've made lots of notes.
</SPAN>">Some readers may be interested in NSC Tech Talk articles at <A href="http://www.nsc.ca/techtalk/index.htm">0>http://www.nsc.ca/techtalk/index.htm</A>. In particular, there are two similar articles that deal with rebedding deck fittings. See <A href="http://www.nsc.ca/techtalk/rebedding_deck_fittings.htm">0>http://www.nsc.ca/techtalk/rebedding_deck_fittings.htm</A> and <A href="http://www.nsc.ca/techtalk/deck_fittings.htm">0>http://www.nsc.ca/techtalk/deck_fittings.htm</A>. While the author (a former -27 owner) appears to favour a different method than David, there are lots of good suggestions.
</SPAN>">And thanks, too, David, for posting the info and especially the photos in the Black Arts section (<A href="http://www.cc27association.com/fixes/decktracks/index.html">0>http://www.cc27association.com/fixes/decktracks/index.html</A>). More photos of hardware layout would be a really valuable addition to this site. If anyone is interested in posting more photos of how they have laid out their hardware and rigging, that would be much appreciated. Shots looking straight down, with a tape measure in view, would be particularly useful. I’ll try to contribute my part once we get our boat.
</SPAN>">Thanks again.
</SPAN>">Hugh Morrin
a>"Blue Zulu"
MK 3, #894, Nepean SC</SPAN>
Hugh Morrin
Blue Zulu, C&C 27 Mk III, #894
Nepean Sailing Club, www.nsc.ca/cc27
President and back-up webmaster, C&C 27 Association
Offline
I went through the same questions last year and had some email conversations with Larry Bayer (see "Yogi Bear" pictured in the fleet if you haven't met or talked with Larry). Larry was good enough to email several pictures of his boat showing his track layout and several of "Lagacy" as well. They each have slightly different track layouts and since both are, as far as I can tell from 'way out here on the west coast, very successful racers, whom to emulate?. Perhaps Larry would send you the pics to you if he still has them as I can't find them now.
So, armed with the insight from Larry's pictures, I did the following, with the help of a very technically minded friend:
First, we laid out the track as close to the superstructure (doghouse, cabin, whatever) as I could, making sure the car would clear and wouldn't touch the superstructure and damage the jelcoat. That was where we planned to, and eventually did place the tracks. The forward point of the track is just ahead of the aft shrouds, perhaps 2". Then, to make sure the other side was exactly the same, we measured back from the tack, 10 feet and called that Dimension X. We then ran a rope back from the tack to the tip of the track and at the point of Dimension X, we measured out to where the rope was running. There is a formula to determine the degree of angle. I don't remember just what angle we ended up with, but as a guess, I'd say 9 degrees. I can measure it if you wish and let you know. Racing boats are usually around 8 to 9 degrees, cruisers are happy with 10 degrees.
I am very happy with the track placement. It has made a tremendous defference flying the #3 in particular and is, frankly, a much cleaner arrangement. I fly the #3 with the sheets outside the forward shrouds and inside the upper and the aft shrouds. Hope this helps. Here are the the measurements from Dimension X to the rope:
For 7 degrees, measure 14 3/8"
8 16 7/8"
9 19"
10 21 1/8"
11 23 3/8"
12 25 1/2"
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