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I've seen the genoa tracks and deck layouts detailed in the Black Arts section. I'm wondering if anyone has any additional photos / descriptions of how they've set up genoa tracks and halyard / control line setups on the cabin top? (especially for boats with dodgers).
North Saanich, B.C.
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
Some more details of what I'm trying to plan-out:
The boat is a 79 MkIII.
Just the main and genoa halyards currently lead aft to the original horn cleats with the original cabin-top winches. I have 2 Schaefer single turning blocks (that I'll replace). The 140 furling genoa is using snatch blocks on the toerail. Original non-self-tailing winches.
I'd like to add genoa tracks. Probably bite the bullet and do sliding cars rather than pin-stop. I've gotten some Garhauer blocks for my mainsheet, etc. and they seem great so I'd probably go with their set-up (let's hope the CAN $ picks up!).
My outhaul is currently a piece of line .... I haven't decided if I'm going to do an in-boom cascade, or just install sheaves in the end-boom and gooseneck castings and do a purchase between the gooseneck and the mast-step. I get the feeling things will get busy enough at the mast step that in-boom is the way to go. Mainsail is loose-footed.
My cunningham is my old boomvang with a cringle hook added. Like to replace the blocks and lead-aft.
The cunningham doubles for reefing the luff. Leech reefing lines terminate on the side of the boom. I may lead reefing lines aft (cunningham would already be there). My thoughts on this are that I don't really sail single or short-handed so I can put a crew member at the mast but I want them to have the minimum amount of work to do ... with main halyard and luff reef point controlled from the cockpit, the person at the mast has the tasks of: moving the hook up to the reefing cringle; ensuring the mainsail luff slides are not caught-up; pull the leech reef points down and secure the sail at the intermediate cringles. If I have the leech reefs lead aft that's one less thing for them to do.
The boom vang is a new Harken 4:1. I'd like to lead it aft. Future addition would be to add a boomkicker ... or perhaps a rigid vang (and be done with the annoying topping lift!).
I've got a Harken traveler to install. My mainsheet is a 4:1 Garhauer.
I have an older spinnaker, but the boat's never been set-up to use it (i.e. no uphaul, downhaul ... even spinnaker pole). But I do have a spinnaker halyard, which I'd like to lead aft and I'd like to plan ahead for leading spinnaker controls aft too (I'm suspecting they will end up on the side of the coachroof).
Also have a gennaker (that I've never used).
Boat has wheel steering. Furler is a brand new Harken MkIV Unit 0.
One question I have is what's the best approach with regards to which lines to run on line clutches and which to run on cam cleats? Especially given that I have a dodger and things are going to get pretty busy under there!
North Saanich, B.C.
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
Managing space for blocks, lines and stoppers or cam cleats is a real issue on a boat the size of a 27. Lines that we tinker with all the time come aft while reefing lines stay forward, as reefing is an either/or event thatisn't fiddled with once done.
My outhaul is inside the boom, my reefing gear (hook on gooseneck, leech reefing line on boom) is forward and my cam cleats are staggered to maximize space. You might do well to add the Boomkicker now to minimize disruption later on.
Choice of a stopper vs a cam cleat comes down primarily to loads as even high-load cam cleats aren't that strong (plus they are less secure). On Towser, halyards and the vang go to the stoppers while the outhaul, cunningham, pole lift, foreguy and genoa car controls go to cam cleats.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Excellent info - thanks. I kinda figured the reefing best left where it is, and the loading vs stopper-type.
Any thoughts on boomkicker vs rigid vang?
North Saanich, B.C.
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
Boomkicker has minimal moving parts, they're all out in the open so you can see if things are chafed or wearing out, it doesn't squeak like spring vangs and is (if I remember correctly) much less expensive. Plus I have used enough different vangs to regard them all as a total pain. Boomkicker doesn't have any real bad points.
Except... everyone takes off the boom topping lift and I don't see the point - unless you want to give someone a real surprise when they lean on the boom to wrap a tie around the sail or to talk to someone in the next slip. I replaced the wire with a length of Amsteel; it doesn't chafe the leech of the sail and it's more than strong enough for the job.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Amsteel sounds like an interesting idea.
A used Garhauer SV-20-1 rigid vang from about 2006 came up for sale locally. Originally mounted on a C&C 30. While the seller was originally asking for offers, he's now asking $400. To my mind that's a lot for a boomvang that originally was $250 to $300 and now is $630 (CAN) ... with a 10-yr warranty. And Garhauer says $80 (US) to make new boom and mast plates ... so with the exchange and shipping I bet I'd be within $100 of new. I was going to offer $150. Guy doesn't think it's a Garhauer even after I sent links and catalog pages etc ... but he doesn't know what it is either ... and thinks he paid $1200 for it in 2006! .... oh well ... rant over!
I did pick up, from someone else, a new set of Garhauer towable genoa cars for about $120 less than what I'd pay from Garhauer. So ... I'm starting to get organized!
What do you figure for rope clutches ... Spinlock ... Lewmar ... Garhauer ... Easylock?
North Saanich, B.C.
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
It never fails to amaze me when some clown decides, on the basis of having hosed it down once a year, that his piece of used gear is now a valuable antique. Never mind - something sized for a 30 is probably a bit big anyway.
As to stoppers - I replaced the PO's Easylocks, which slipped prodigiously and ate line in the process, with first-generation Spinlocks. Lines tended to creep through them, but they didn't chew up the line. Downsizing my halyards gave me the opportunity to replace these with second-generation Spinlocks. These are easier to use and don't allow nearly as much creep, but they do nevertheless. This isn't like, falling-down loosening of the halyard - just a discernible change in tension and sail shape over an hour or so. If you mark your halyards, you can see this easily and adjust periodically.
On the other hand, a friend with a C&C 99 hated his Spinlocks, claimed they couldn't hold up a clothesline and replaced them with Lewmars. I think - don't quote me - that Lewmars have to be sized very precisely to the line size (certainly on the one boat I've sailed on with Lewmars, the crew knots the halyards around the clutch body - not a great recommendation, but the halyards and stoppers may not be well paired).
I have no experience of current Easylocks - some of which still look like the crude rubbish I took off - or Garhauers. Perhaps someone else does?
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Actually the guys at Garhauer, when I spoke to them, had no concern that length or spring rate would be an issue. Just , as I thought, that certainly the mast and possibly boom plates would be too big. $80 for both, or $40 for just mast.
There are a couple other current Garhauer models that are less $. I could get a RV-6 (aluminum) for about $500 (CAN). A RV-18 would be about $540 (CAN).
Boomkicker would be about $300 for the K1000 model, which I assume would work. With that though, I'd still have to re-do the blocks to allow leading aft since right now there's a Harken fiddle with cam cleat at the mast ... and not a great setup for the attachment point to the mast / mast step. Garhauer would solve both.
I've heard the Spinlock rope clutches don't do as well as they perhaps should with UV deterioration.
North Saanich, B.C.
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
Towser has a Harken fiddle with cam cleat as part of the backstay adjustment tackle. You might repurpose yours.
The levers on my original Spinlocks got brittle after ten or eleven years - or the person who stepped on two of them (two at one time!) when they were open is heavier than she looks. The new ones look as good as new after three. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
A good idea on the repurpose, but I have a separate set already in use for that. Suppose I can always sell a set ... I'll hose them down 1st ;-)
North Saanich, B.C.
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
What do you all think of moving the main and genoa halyards to the mast along with winches? And rigging up a reefing hook at the gooseneck so the cunningham isn't used for reefing too.
So the remaining lines going aft and under the dodger would be vang, spinnaker halyard, cunningham, outhaul, spinnaker topping lift and downhaul. The only clutches would be spinnaker halyard and vang. The rest on cam cleats. Two 3-sheave deck organizers. I'd probably have to replace the old Barient 10's currently on the cabin top with new self tailing winches on the mast?
All reefing functions then are at the mast.
All sail raising functions at the mast (except spinnaker)
Less spaghetti in the cockpit.
I have an adjustable backstay so I can tension the forestay and the genoa furling line is already lead to the starboard side of the cockpit.
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
Completely unrelated, but if you don't use your gennaker, are you interested in selling it?
Paul Baker
Sidney, BC
1974 Mk II
Paul Baker
Sooke, BC
1974 Mk II
Offline
Paul I think I shall hang onto it, thanks.
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
No worries.
Paul Baker
Sidney, BC
1974 Mk II
Paul Baker
Sooke, BC
1974 Mk II
Offline
Bit of an update ... and another couple questions.
I did end up getting that used Garhauer rigid vang (for a good price). When I went to look at it initially the seller didn't have the blocks for it ... which dropped any offer I was going to make even further. He did, however, find the blocks. I discussed with Garhauer themselves, a nearby rigging shop that sells Garhauer stuff and the local rigger (who had done my new furler install last year) the application of this vang on the 27. Since it's rated for 27 to 44 ft boats I was still concerned it might be overkill. All my sources seemed to think it would work fine. My local rigger gave me the scoop on how to "massage" the mast and boom fittings to the smaller 27 spar sizes (basically a vice and hammer and pound on them!). Rigger also said that what they would do with the "external" sail track on the mast (part of the extrusion)is to grind it away in the area where the boom vang mast plate has to fit. Anyway, I have a friend locally who is a welder and spent years building in stainless for the marine industry here, so I'm going to pick his brain too. Garhauer also quoted me $80 US for new boom and mast brackets.
A question on another topic .... cascading outhaul, internal to the boom. For those of you (David for example) that have written their installs in the Black Arts .... what size wire rope did you use and do you recall the size of the sheave that fits into the boom end?
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
Still wondering on ....
.... cascading outhaul, internal to the boom. For those of you (David for example) that have written their installs in the Black Arts .... what size wire rope did you use and do you recall the size of the sheave that fits into the boom end?
Thanks
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
Do I recall any of these dimensions? From ten years ago? Not likely. But I was on the boat yesterday, so here we go...
The sheave is around 1 1/2 inch diameter to 1 5/8 inch diameter (can't see it clearly to measure without disassembly) and one quarter of an inch wide (if you have the same casting on the boom as I do, you'll see that's the controlling dimension and you could probably get a good sense of the maximum permissible diameter by measuring from the drilled axle hole). Can't tell you what size the hole for the axle is, but I remember there is an oilite bearing on it, which helps keep it running smoothly. The outhaul wire is 1/8" 7x19 wire. Note that the gooseneck casting approximately mirrors the boom end casting, so someone in the design office clearly had the idea that a wire could lead from the boom end to the gooseneck and then down to the to an adjusting tackle or the deck.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2015-06-25 03:17:32)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Excellent ... thanks very much!
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
1979 C&C 27 MkIII, Hull No. 780
Cygnet
North Saanich, BC
Offline
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