C&C 27 Association Forum

Guest

Get my Mk V going fast

Hi,

My Mk V frustrates me...

I can't seem to get her to sail fast consistently.

I trim sails well, try and keep her heeled to leeward 15 degrees, have new sails, keep the crew weight out of the cockpit but she struggles with boat speed and pointing.

Any experienced mk V racers out there have some thoughts on what I might want to give some attention to.

Thanks,

Robert

s/v Skylark

Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba

Guest

Re: Get my Mk V going fast

Is your standing rigging  and mast are well adjust ? big difference if not ....

See tuning guide in Sea change section

Jean :-)Jean Rivest,
Sorel-Tracy

Steve Reid

Member

Re: Get my Mk V going fast

Robert:

The first step is to go to the Black Arts and print out the Tuning Guide for the Matk V. I have found that the boat needs the maximum amount ot rake to get the boat to point, so I go with about 16". The next issue is to get the mast centered in the boat (side to side), I use a spare sail slide in the mast track (put it on before you feed the slides for your main so it sits above the othere slides) then I use the main haylard to hoist the slide with a tape measure attached up to he top of the mast. I do that because the main haylard does not exit the top of the mast at the centre line, it's off set to one side. I measure to a fixed point on each side (the deck at the toe rail is best) dirctly abeam of the mast. Tension your uppers to get the mast head in the centre of the boat and then adjust the lowers to keep the mast in column.

Once you have the mast in the centre you will need to tension (make equal adjustments by counting the number of turns {tighter ot looser} on the tuenbuckles) to get the correct load on the rigging. I use a LOOSE Gauge and I'm at about 28 - 30 on the uppers, this tension will induce a good amount of pre-bend into the mast with a slack (hand tight) backstay. Pre-bend is important to the boat especially if you have a fairly full Main Sail, if you Main is cut flat then less pre-bend, if it's full more pre-bend. The other thing you want to check (this will also affect pre-bend) is the arrangement of your upper shrouds and the intermediat shrouds (if you boat is equipped with intermediates - some of the early boats weren't), the uppers should be in the aft slot at the spreader ends. your lowers should be in the aft hole at the spreader roots, if they are in the forward hole it will inhibit mast bend.

Once you have the rig set up you need to pay attention to how you have the boat set while sailing. the boat is sensitive to main sheet tension and traveller car placement.

My boat has a solid Vang and we "Vang Sheet" the main which is a fairly full sail with a maximum roach so we have to be very carefull to not over vang/sheet the sail or the leach acts as a break. We set the vang to get the shape we want and then play the traveller to get the amount of helm I'm confortable with in the given conditions.

Headstay sag is another factor that seems to affect the Mark V, we generally go with a very streight headstay (very little sag) in anything except very light  (under 5 kts.), (or very heavy over 15 kts. with big waves), in which case we slack the backstay of a bit to give the Genoa a little more shape.

Genoa sheeting on my boat is to the cockpit coming track for the #1 & 2 and to the deck track (about 4 -5 holes back from the front end) for the #3.

I see you said that you keep the crew out of the cockpit and that's a good thing, but where you place them on the deck is critical also. On my boat, the only people allowed in the cockpit most of the time are my jib trimmer who lives on the primary winch and works the trim constantly (she weighs about 130 lbs.) My Main Trimmer/Traveller person (she weighs about 140 lbs. on the deck as far forward as possible and still be able to work the sheet and traveller controlls. The helmsman (I'm a big guy 230 lbs.) sits to windward with my froward theigh right up against the aft side of the primary winch. If it's light  (under 5 -6 kts.) then I'll often sit to leeward in the front corner of the cockpit. In general, upwind, the boat likes to have the weight centered on the rail more aft than forward (use the cabin windows as a referance or keep the crew stationed between the 2nd and 3rd lifeline stantions). As the wind lightens move the crew forward and inboard, but the furthest forward anyone should be is the shrouds. As the wind increases move the crew aft and outboard. Downwind weight in the back of the  boat is deadly, you have to keep the bottom edge of the transom out of the water, especially in light to medium conditions (if you hear gurgeling you are slow). When the wind picks up the boat needs weight aft to keep the stern down and prevent the boat from rounding up under spinnaker and broaching, so I start moving people to the stern rail untill I have good control and the rudder will keep the boat steering.

Hope this helps let me know if you need any more.

Steve Reid

Still Knot Working Mark V #75

[The original C&C tuning guide for the Mk V is in Sea Change (the one in Black Arts deals with the Mks I to IV). That said, I'd like to put this in Black Arts if Steve gives his consent -- anyone have any differences of opinion, additions, etc.? - Admin] [Now done.]

Last edited by (2009-08-29 10:58:07)

Brent

Member

Re: Get my Mk V going fast

Hey Bob

Are you sailing with the tranny in gear. I found the folding prop on Wild Rover does not fold unless the transmission is locked in gear and a turning prop is as slow as a fixed unit. I can now feel the subtle difference when its turning (not to mention the litre of water I end up with in the bilge through the packing)
Brent Driedger

S/V Wild Rover

C&C 27 MkV #15

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Brent Driedger
S/V Wild Rover
C&C 27 MkV #15
;

Guest

Re: Get my Mk V going fast

Thanks for your responses gentlemen.

Steve: I'm going to tune to your specs and see what how that does. Will let you know the results. Thanks again for your reply.

Brent: I do lock it in gear so the prop folds.

Guest

Re: Get my Mk V going fast

Steve- your description of crew placement is great. I am trying to visualize how your traveler gorilla operates. Does she sit on the windward rail in line with the traveler? Then as you tack, she releases windward traveler cleat, then crosses over to the new windward and re-trims traveler? If the breeze is light and you are driving from leeward in the forward corner of the cockpit, there must be some clever choreography to get this all done. Maybe you should get a videographer to show us how to sail a Mark V.

Also, what is the actual rigging of your traveler-I am not happy with mine and want to change it for the better. Mine has a single block with becket on the car and a double block hanging on the cockpit side leading to a cam cleat further up the coaming. I am thinking the double should be replaced by a twin cheek block attached to the cockpit wall?

What size primary winch does your jib jockey use. My 130 pounder has problems sheeting in our 135 genoa when the wind gets above 10 kts.

thanks for your advice copasetic

Steve Reid

Member

Re: Get my Mk V going fast

Copasetic:

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you with a response. I did try a couple of times but for some reason it got lost in cyberspace.

Anyway here you go. First of all the traveller system on my boat is a Harken Windward Sheeting system, not cheap but worth every $$$$ in my opinion. With the Harken system there is no need to release one side as you tack, to be able to adjust from the new windward side. The device does it automatically for you. The way it works the cam cleats are mounted on the traveller car itself. The control line dead ends on the traveller car, goes to a bullit block mounted on the cockpit combing and then back to a turning block on the traveller car and to the cam cleat (3:1 purchase). When the boat tacks and the load on the traveller car changes from one side to the other, the old windward side cam cleat opens and the new windward side cam cleat closes.

So now to the choreography: First the Main Trimmer, she sits on the windward side on the deck with her forward butt cheek resting against the aft cabin bulkhead. When I call for a tack she gets ready to move (doesn't move till I say "ready about") AS I say "helms-a-lee" the Main Trimmer moves to the companionway (centre of the boat) as the bow crosses head to wind the Main Trimmer looks up (shes facing aft) makes sure that the leach of the main has cleared the back stay, grabs the new windward side traveller control line, moves to the new windward side position and adjusts the traveller. The Jib Trimmers, Grinder and Tailer, the tailer is sitting on the windward rail/deck, just forward of the Main Trimmer, the Grinder (in light wind <8 kts.) is sitting to leeward constantly adjusting the Genoa. If it's blowing (10> kts) the grinder has set the Genoa and is sitting on the windward side immediately forward of the Main Trimmer (the tailer is now sitting just forward of the Grinder). When I call for a tack the Grinder and Tailer get ready to move (get the blood flowing in their legs) they don't move till I sat "ready about"). When I call "ready about" they both move, the Grinder to the Windward Primary and insets the winch handle, (the winch has already been preloaded with turns of the lazy sheet), the Tailer moves to the leeward forward side of the cockpit, her forward theigh is just aft of the traveller, she grabs the lazey sheet and pre-tensions the sheet, (if it's light wind <8 kts. the Grinder has simply to move across the cockpit to the windward primary). As I call Helms-a-lee" I move across the cockpit (10> kts) and release the genoa sheet from the leeward primary (<8 kts. I simply move aft just before the tailer moves into her position). As the bow comes head to wind the genoa is released and trimmed in on the new tack, I oversteer slightly to allow the boat speed to build as the Genoa is trimmed in, I preload the new windward primary and move into my steering position (<8 kts. forward lower corner of the cockpit, 10> windward side cockpit combing just aft of the primary)

The Primary winches on my boat are Harken 18's self tailing, the previous owner had them installed and I bless him every time we are sailing.

So I hope that helps you and it's as close as I can get to giving you a video. If you want to come play with us sometime this fall or next spring we be glad to have come out and do some 2 boat tuning.

Steve Reid

Still Knot Working, 27 MkV #75

Guest

Re: Get my Mk V going fast

Steve,

I really appreciate your description of tuning and crew management but I have to ask; Do you win races ??

Steve is the past and current 27 Mk V Canadian champion. See results from the EYC regatta (the Championships) here. - Admin

Last edited by (2009-09-15 02:14:56)

jpsilverboat

Member

Re: Get my Mk V going fast

Sincere congratulations for Steve and it makes all his comments that much more interesting. And thank you for your generosity Steve.<h4>JP(Douce Menace)</h4>

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<h4>JP(Douce Menace)</h4>