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Have the boat out of the water. Greasy rust dripping off the rudder? First time out of the water in along time! Any thoughts?
Jennifer
That's not a lot of info to go on. Most rudders of the C&C 27 age absorb water, When you take the boat out of the water, the water in the rudder will run out. There's not a lot you can do about it on a permanent basis other than rebuild them. To decide if it's an actionable issue, you need to consider other issues:
- Are there obvious hollows under the fibreglass skin?
- Do other boats in your area exhibit comparable signs or is it just you?
- Is the glass skin shaky on the shaft?
- Does it bug you?
In other words, if it's normal for your area, this is an idle inquiry and you're just looking for reassurance, forget it. If this is anomalous and you're really concerned, you're going to have to split the rudder and look inside.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Have a look in Black Arts "Hyperion's New rudder" First picture, exploded Origonal rudder. I had rusty crud coming out the side of this one thru a small hole. It would bleed for a month after haulout. This was caused by water leaking into the rudder where the shaft and rudder come together. You will notice that when they first built the rudder they used ordinary carbon steel for the support and welded it to a Stainless shaft. ( cost saving at time of manufacture I assume). Over time as this starts to rust you will get the discoloration of the water coming out.
A lot of people drill a small hole in the bottom of these rudders when they haul out and let it dry out over the winter. Re-glass the hole in the spring before launching.
Ralph Ainslie
"Hyperion"
>You will notice that when they first built the rudder they used ordinary carbon steel for the support and welded it to a Stainless shaft.
Ralph, you are probably much more savvy about metal than I am, but is it not true that even the best stainless will rust or corrode if it's in oxygen-free salt water, producing the greasy brown crud that we're talking about here?
I don't entirely understand the mechanism, but I thought stainless steel was rather like aluminum, which forms a protective oxide on an exposed surface. Therefore, if there is no water circulation (and water that has seeped into a rudder is not going to circulate), the water's oxygen will become exhausted, the protective oxide will disappear and corrosion will begin in earnest, even with the best quality of stainless steel. True or not?
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
David, I believe you are right. 30 years ago, the most common grade of Stainless was 304, and it would rust easily. With the newer grades of 316L etc. now this is a lot less common.
Ralph Ainslie
"Hyperion"
What would your recomendations be given we only come out of the water for a day or so for paint a year?
It felt firm all over no soft spots and the surveyor hammered (last summer) it carefully (a fellow C&C owner long time surveyor) He detected no issues.
If anyone has had the same issues...
What signs should we look for danger?
Has anyone let it go too long and what happened?
No one seems to want to answer this with direct experience -- which may, I hope, indicate that rudder failure is very rare -- so let's try some conjecture about the risk and the costs of reducing the risk.
You've told us nothing about who you are, where you are or what you do with your boat, nor have you said anything about the age and history of your boat, so there simply is no way that anyone here can offer more than general advice, which is what I’m going to offer. As a background, let me say that several years ago, I heard from a yacht broker that several C&C’s on the lakes had lost their masts due to rigging failure. I balanced the cost (approx C$700) against the risk (known 'smoking gun' multiplied by known issues with my standing wire and the hassle of losing a season -- I reckon the risk of losing the boat and of personal injury to be extant but low) and called the rigger.
Your rudder obviously has some corrosion on its post and support, hence the greasy brown discharge. However, everyone seems to have the same flow of brown crud and we haven't heard from a chorus of people whose rudders have failed, so unless someone out there can tell us that rudder welds have been failing regularly and no one has been admitting it, we can discount brown crud as an indicator of imminent failure.
That still leaves a small possibility that your rudder might be the first to go. Can we drive uncertainty to zero? If your rudder fails, it will almost certainly do so at the weld between post and reinforcing plate. You could x-ray the intact rudder -- almost certainly an expensive proposition, or you could open up the rudder and inspect it directly -- certainly an expensive proposition.
If it did go, what is the risk? If you day-sail or day-race the boat, or your cruising is limited to protected waters, loss of your rudder would mean a spoiled race or an upset holiday. If your sailing takes you to places and situations where a rudder failure could risk the boat or someone's life, then despite the absence of any indicator of significant risk, you may still want to consider a thorough inspection. Alternatively, you should investigate and implement a method for emergency control of a rudderless boat.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Since writing the post above, I have exchanged e-mails with Ralph Ainslie of "Hyperion", a 27 Mk I. Hyperion's rudder was destroyed during Hurricane Juan (as detailed in Black Arts) so Ralph had the opportunity to examine a rudder post and reinforcement that had spent some 30 years in salt water. Ralph, who can be presumed to know more than most of us about metal, as his business includes a machine shop, said the following:
"The support plate from Hyperion was carbon steel welded to a Stainless post. It was stitch welded rather than a continuous weld.
"I don't believe having a weld break is an issue. The support plate looked like it just had some rust scale on it and this would mix with the water in the rudder and bleed when the rudder drained. There was no loss of support. I think that the only problem is that the discharge looks ugly."
Your mileage may vary, as they say, but based on the above, I am confident that the greatest danger to a rudder – other than a hurricane – is that trapped water will freeze inside the rudder and split the outer shell.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Thanks for the info. I wasn't looking for a garantee just some information. We use the boat for cruising mostly. Its our first summer with it and have yet to really get the sails up. We checked out a bunch of fellow C&Cs when we were out of the water all had same drip. Some of the boats were from the 80's. Ours is a 72. We have seconday steering so it shouldn't be much of an issue....unless it is! I am getting used to that answer! As a new boat owner I have a million question and not a lot of vocabulary!
My response is based upon a geographical area where the rudder does freeze...
We have a 27 mk II. Our rudder was truly soaked and delaminating.
I worked on one side at a time to keep a sense of hydrodynamic shape at all times and took pictures/video.
There is a piece of wood laid across each side of the (stainless?)steel blade inside that was rotting and the the steel was beginning to pit/rust.
I guess stainless rusts in the absence of air? The foam was soaked somewhat like a sponge and the fiberglass filler was not too happy either.
I used West System epoxy and West microfibre filler along with a small piece of construction foam board (1 inch thick) and some pieces of wood to help fill up the cavity. Surrounded, of course, by waterproof epoxy.
Layering works best, as too much epoxy at a time overheats, bubbles and becomes porous.
I used two layers of fairly heavy glass cloth finished with a light weight cloth, overlapping the new/old joint. I guess one way to look at this was that I "skeletonized" the rudder to maintain the
outline of its shape. This was not a cheap repair, must have been ~$500 Canadian, perhaps a less expensive epoxy could be used. It was significantly cheaper than the $1500-2000 I was quoted!
I didn't paint the finished rudder, just a coat of anti-fouling paint.
I also used a slow setting hardener, so the job took a lot longer.
If this sounds daunting, it wasn't really...also, the fact that your rudder is not exposed to freezing cycles may make a big difference.
I was told by a marina operator that 80 % of boats' rudders are "wet"!
If mere water causes delam. then it should show up by "sounding" with a hammer like the surveyors use.
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