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Does anyone out there have experience with using an outboard and or replacing the atomic 4 with an outboard on a bracket?
I belong to a sailing club with one hundred members. Some of them are not capable of making sure the raw water intake through hull is open. After several costly repairs we are considering going to an outboard.
Any thoughts, suggestions or contacts would be appreciated.
Mark
My question to you would be, why would anyone close the raw water intake valve in the first place? It is not nesessary on a C&C27.
I've sailed boats with outboards and while an outboard is acceptable for getting in and out of harbour, they're no good for any prolonged use. If there's any wave action, they are constantly being totally immersed or lifted clear of the water (an experience so unpleasant that an inboard was my wife's only inflexible demand when buying our present boat). Given the technical incompetence of your membership, you may find that the repair bills brought on by this characteristic would make you yearn for the days with the A4.
I'd also note that most outboard-powered sailboats have lower transoms than a 27. Fiddling with a recalcitrant outboard (and there is no other kind) while hanging upside down over a 27's transom strikes me as uncomfortable and unsafe -- in fact, downright dangerous.
Someone wrote here a year or so ago that he had replaced his 27's A4 with an outboard. A few of us discussed this on the dock one day and concluded, mostly on the basis of the ideas above, but also on the aesthetics of the thing, that he might have saved a few thousand by going to an outboard, but had reduced the value of the boat by at least double that amount.
As alternatives, consider installing a key switch right beside the raw water seacock and rewiring the engine so it cannot start unless the key is on. It won't guarantee the seacock is open, but it will make the omission an act of such obvious carelessness that you can demand that the villain pays for repairs. A high temperature alarm would be a good idea, too; it wouldn't save the impeller, but it would save the cylinder head (see the Moyer Marine link for an A4 alarm).
Finally, given that this seems to be a long-running problem, it may be time for some policy changes. Rather than throwing out a good engine, have you considered the risk/reward elements in asking people to shut off the intake? Forget about the 'good seaman' aspects of closing valves when you leave a boat. You have to leave the cockpit drains open, so leaving the engine intake open seems a manageable addition to the risk.
Then there is the truly loaded question: have you considered changing the way you qualify people to take the boat out? If a person really is so incompetent that they cannot follow a simple set of rules for starting an engine, he or she probably should not be in charge of a vessel as large as a 27.
David Weatherston
"Towser", Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2004-01-27 01:24:40)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
I am very happy with my Outboard replacement of the A4. With all due respect to David's preceeding comments, I think his comments are (1) correct as to why to make such a change; and (2) are of value only to his area, type of sailing, and personal considerations. Inboard gasoline motors in the Texas Gulf Coat <img src="emoticons/icon_frown.gif">third largest sailing community in the US) area actually devalue a boat - if an inboard is not diesel - they have very poor resale value. Our very long hot summers and some wide temperature ranges have a lot to do with this. As for the outboard - if you were to consider 2 cycle gas/oil mix outboard, - I might be inclined to agree with David. I installed a Yamaha 4 stroke 8HP outboard - it has electric tilt, shifter on handle, with high-thrust prop option. It pushes my 72' Mark I at hull speed in calm water at about 2/3 throttle, in moderate seas it makes hull speed at less than full throttle. While I have not sailed in any gales yet, I have not experienced the prop coming out of the water - even with my 230 lbs. on the foredeck. Galveston bay is shallow and known for it's nasty chop when the wind kicks up. I don't have to lean over the transom for anything other than to check the oil (prior to departure). Gas milage (no gas/oil mix !) is better than my neighbor's Mark II with A4. If you go with a cheap 2 cycle, you would need 15 HP and have to endure the oily smoke and recalcitrant outboard. The advantages of my outboard conversion are several - including: more storage space (significant), no concern of gasoline vapors in the bilge, quiet operation, less and easier maintenance, very good gas milage, and improved maneuvering in close quarters. My wife insists on no internal gasoline, so I am installing a vented sealed gas tank locker. As for long term use, I have sailed both inboard and outgoard gas as well as inboard diesel powered sailboats. For My type of sailing, I have no doubts I have made the right choice, after more than two years of sailing 3-4 times a month (all year here) I am quite happy with the switch. I do a lot of day sailing and some overnight trips with an occasional week long cruise - this boat gets a lot of use. Last weekend I motored into an 18-20 wind - right on the nose down the Galveston Ship channel for 27 nm - an inboard would not have been any better. The only disadvantage to me is the practical necessity of mounting centerline and the resultant rudder action in reverse (aggravated by the poor design mark I rudder (to be replaced on next haul!). Fortunately this is easily overcome by spinning the rudder 180 before backing out. The effect is not seen when using reverse for slowing or stopping. Mounting was not that difficult, and would be easy to reproduce since I have drawings, etc. I would be happy to share the pertinent info and photo's with anyone interested. By the way, the A4 runs and is for sale. I can imagine only one use for it, but there is no where to attach an anchor rode.
Warren Smith wbstx@aol.com
Rather then reply individually to each one of you who kindly responded to my inquiry I will try a blanket response.
Thank you to all of you for taking the time to respond.
As to why we close the through hulls I can only tell you the history that has been given to me, since I am a recent member to the club. I was advised that we used to close the through hulls because our insurance company advised if our boats sank at the dock with a through hull open they would not cover us. The insurance company has recanted and said we can leave them open in the summer.
As the the training issues etc. The club has 100 members with a turnover of about 25% per year. Occassionally members have been known to take a boat out without having been checked out in it first. This should not happen but does. Some of the members are older and have trouble getting into the locker to check the through hull. I suspect the change in practice has not helped since some people out of habit, good seamanship or whatever will still close the through hull after use. The next member may not check becasue they assume we now leave the through hull open. I don't know what your C&C's are like but on ours there is the through hull for the cockpit drain and hidden below it is the through hull for the raw water. You almost have to crawl or fall into the locker to reach the raw water intake.
A bit late in the day we began the process of installing warning buzzers and key lockout systems. Unfortunately we are now faced with the options of rebuild, converting to diesel or going to an outboard. The outboard is the least expensive in terms of initial cost.
The club has four Grampian 26's equiped with 9.9 Yamaha fourstrokes. They drive the Grampians at a cruising speed of 5.5 knots. The boats are used every day in June through August. One is taken up to Desolation Sound at the North end of Vancouver Island and back each summer. That is a distance of over 100 miles. They frequently cross the Georgia Straight a distance 14 to 18 miles depending on where you go. The engines log a lot of miles and we simply don't have problems with the Yamahas. Unfortunately we have had problems with the Atomic four that go beyond the over heating arising from the through hulls. For all of these reasons a decision was made to install a Yamaha on to the C&C.
If it were my own boat I would be looking hard at the rebuild but I can say I understand the club's decision. It only takes one person out of the hundred to make a mistake to set us back several thousand dollars with the Atomic 4 while that is much less likely with the Yamaha.
I do appreciate the comments. We went through most of them when the decision was being made.
Thanks again Mark
Hi I have a mark 2 with an outboard bracket and a 9.9 horse outboard. I have no issues so far (its a new boat to me) It significantly lowers the value to remove the inboard. Its great for steering...can use the outboard in an unlocked position and it turns on a dime! We will eventually put an inboard back in but for now it got us a bigger boat!
Cheers
Alex
Mark,
There are some pros and cons concerning outboards on larger sailboats. Most have already been discussed. All I can add is that I made the mistake of scrimping on the motor for my last boat and paid for it with poor reliability and no dealer support. Ask around the marina and see who would repower with their current outboard. Buying a decent longshaft outboard with electric start will be expensive. But the one thing I can say for bargain outboards is that I really learned to sail a Catalina 25 because of one.
mike
Pura Vida
Alex
How is your outboard installed so that it allows steering? Our current set up does not and it creates certain problems. If we lock the outboard she back nicely and turns well backwards. With too much throttle there is a real kick on the rudder. Forward she if very slow turning. If we unlock the motor she turns better forward but reverse is not good. Steering the motor should improve matters.
For those other who replies we are using a Yamaha 9.9 long shaft on a sliding bracket. The Yamaha is a great engine.
Mark
Mark
Hi Mark
I am just figuring out how to explain things in a language that others can figure out so I will tell you what we have and what I do.
We are new to sailing and new to motors so bear with me!
We have a brand new Yamaha 9.9 longshaft. It is mounted on a pretty standard mount from what I have seen around the marina. I just do not lock the motor. I have had it pop up when not locked down properly. With the regular tiller handle (on the outboard) I can just turn it to get us out of our slot like a dream. It almost just pulls us where I want it to go. I don't stear it in forward from the outboard just in reverse. A tip I got from my awesome outboard guy at North West Yamaha in North Van was to put an extention on the tiller handle using black pbc tube and hose clamps. We have not done this yet but it may be helpful. You mentioned that yours is a Mark 1...mine is a Mark II and I think the rudder was modified. Do you get any movement from you transome (fiberglass) with pushing? We have a slight wobble.
Alex
Alex
If I said a Mark I, I meant a Mark III. The mount we have is a sliding bracket on two metal tubes. The result is that we can't use the regular tiller arm. It hits the bracket. Some ideas that seem good at the time turn out to be not so good in practice. On the Mark I's the rudder can be swung 180 degrees which I understand makes it much easier steering in reverse. You must of course remember to swing it back for going forward. Some of us have come up with some ideas for turning the engine on including turning it with the rudder. We will see how they pan out.
Mark
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