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Hello,
I have recently purchased a C&C 27 Hull #59 with Mark II rigging (1972). I noticed that when the boat is sailing hard (in 20 knts of wind, no wave), the bildge fills up.
The water level is unchanged when the boat is under power, and also when sailing with light wind.
The water is salty and I suspect that the water comes from the interface between the keel and the hull, when the boat is sailing hard. When the boat was out for inspection, I could not see any gap that this level.
Tightening the keel bolt is not easy and I will need to find the proper tool.
Has anybody experienced these kind of symptoms? Is it possible that the seal between the keel and the hull needs changing?
Stéphane
You need to torque the nuts on your keel bolts. Find the proper tool (possibly from a rental shop, or just buy a simple torque wrench, an extension and the sockets you need, and reef the nuts up to the values you find in these threads. Keel bolts: <http://www.cc27association.com/f3/toast/toast.asp?sub=show&action=posts&fid=2&tid=31> and
Torque for keel bolts on a Mk III (it's the bolt size that's important, not the Mark): <http://www.cc27association.com/f3/toast/toast.asp?sub=show&action=posts&fid=2&tid=1010>
This should take care of the leaks and will be far less work than changing the seal (lotsa work).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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I tried both of the links you posted David, and on both occasions got the following error message: "POST or GET method passed unexpected value". I am not familiar with this error, any suggestions?
Chris Ferrier
Chriswheat Second Wind
Chesapeake Bay MD
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Okay - forget the links. Just search for those two items, "keel bolts" and "torque for keel bolts on a Mk 111 ???". If that doesn't work, I found those two by searching "torque" and "bolt" (didn't look any farther, because those are the main threads I remember on the topic).
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Something else that you may want to check on: is there sufficient grease around the rudder shaft? How long since you repacked and tightened the grease cup on the shaft mounting where it comes into the hull? My Mk III tends to squat at the stern when moving really well, not to mention the effects of the stern quarter-wave. If there is insufficient grease packing around the rudder post, then water may be able to come in through there. I have experienced this problem myself, because I did not pack in sufficient grease when I removed and replaced the rudder. If the keel joint seemed tight when you hauled, then you might want to look for an alternative source. Remember, any water that comes in eventually ends up in the bilge, even if it doesn't come in past the keel bolts.
Marcus Opitz
Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847
If the water is entering via the rudder tube, wouldn't it also tend to come in under power? (Particularly since under power – at least on my boat – everyone tends to sit at the back of the cockpit.) As to the issue of appearances &ndash my keel looked tight when inspected, but during the first season, we nearly sank on every tack. Reefing on the keel nuts cured that. - Admin
Last edited by (2007-12-24 07:34:48)
>Thank you David. I will look up the torque value for the bolts (2 different sizes).
Stéphane
Mystery, Victoria, BC
C&C27 MkII
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>Marcus,
All the engine and rudder area looked dry but when I sail hard again I will look at the rudder shaft for some possible leak. Thanks for the tip.
Stéphane
Mystery, Victoria, BC
C&C27 Mk II
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>Hi Chris,
I found this webside on C&C. It has some torque values:
<A href="http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/torquebolts/torquebolts.htm">http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/torquebolts/torquebolts.htm</A>
Stéphane
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One of our earlier threads lists a discussion on sail.net (the thread is a mess because everyone, it seems, quotes every preceding message in its entirety!) that notes a website devoted to 4x4's with a clear informative article on tightening bolts, accompanied by a torque calculator for the sizes of bolt we're interested in. It works for grade 5 and 8 bolts (I tried grade 5 because the bolts are old and thus might be assumed to have lost some strength to fatigue, and the 1/2" came in close to the values published in our manuals).
One thing that has not been mentioned is the necessity of ensuring that you are torquing down on good threads. This may call for the addition of a washer or two on top of those already there.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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I had a similar experience with my C&C24. First, I found that a connection on my bilge hose leading to the outlet was bad. The outlet was only submerged when sailing hard and on one tack only. After I replaced the bad hose connection, I still found a smaller leak when sailing, but not on the mooring. Attempting to tighten the keel bolts caused one to snap off-the stainless steel was no longer stainless. The (reputable) yard concluded there was a stress fracture in the keel sump which they could not find-at least not for any reasonable sum. We could not see seepage at the bolts.
Lesson-talking to other yard guys, before tightening the keel bolts, have the boat on the hard and carefully loosen them first before torquing down.
Good luck
copasetic (now a Mark V owner with fresh water in the bilge from leaky windows and cabin top leaks where the fairleads and clutches are bolted through)
Hi
<BLOCKQUOTE>"copasetic (now a Mark V owner with fresh water in the bilge from leaky windows and cabin top leaks where the fairleads and clutches are bolted through)"</BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought my MKV leaked from the cabin top too - so over the years I rebedded everything on top - but it still leaked - more every year.
Finally I took the hatch apart and discovered a small gap between the cabin top and the liner - under the aft piece of mahogany. I filled the gap with epoxy and after 8 years no more leak!
Jim W
MKV Hull 69
Last edited by (2007-12-31 07:36:09)
thanks Jim- the boat is covered now. When 2008 warms up , I will check it out. I can't picture the aft piece of trim right now. By "take apart hatch" you mean remove the stops so it slides out completely?
copasetic
Hi
the plexigalss cover slides on two aluminum rails, with two pieces of teak screwed to the bottom of the plexi to hold it in place. Remove the screws, the teak falls off and you lift off the plexi. Then remove the piece of teak that sits on the cabin top at the aft end of the sliding hatch (keeps the hatch from sliding off) - remove that teak to reveal the join between the cabin top and liner - on my boat there was a 1/4" gap and some 25 year old filler - and a leak.
Jim
Well thank you for sharing your experience. I was actually wondering if I should have the boat out of the water (mild winter here in BC) before doing up the bolts.
Stéphane
Mystery, MrkII, Victoria BC
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Thank you, when running hard I will look at the rudder shaft for water. I've just bought the boat so I don't know when the shaft was re-packed.
Stéphane
Mystery Mrk II, Victoria, BC
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=3>Hi all,
=3>Good news, I found the problem and fixed it. While out for a sail yesterday under 10-15 knts for wind I was looking for the leak through the rudder shaft as recommended by Marcus Opitz. I saw under the cockpit locker water coming out of the propane tank box vent hose. Was like a garden hose! While healing over, the end (attached to the box) of pipe was below the water line and because it was loose water was coming in the boat… not too clever.
=3>The propane system was decommissioned months ago because not to standard. I will use a portable butane stove for my short cruises in the Vancouver Island Gulf Islands. So, no need for a full kitchen.
=3>The drain pipe is now closed and above the water line and the boat dry and I will leave the keel boats as they are for now. What a relief!
=3>Thank you all for your inputs.
=3>Stéphane,
Mystery, Mrk II #59, Victoria, BC.
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Good to hear that you found a cause and a solution! Somehow, it's never what we first suspect. Now, if only I can track down and eliminate ALL of my deck leaks ....
Marcus
Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847
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