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Any recommendation for a racing headsail.
In our current inventory we have a 100% dacron and a 153% Mylar. The 100 is in good shape and still trims good when it's blowing.
The 153 is aweful. Can't trim the belly of the sail. No matter what there's a big bag in the middle that can't be trimmed. I thought Mylar's not supposed to stretch so assume this sail (came with the boat) might not have been well cut to begin with.
Any guidance out there for such a weapon in the 138% range for this boat with consideration to PHRF implications?
Note it's being flow with (for the time being any way) with just a stock dacron main sail in fair-good "trimable" shape.
Appreciate any advice.
Cheers,
Robert
s/v Skylark
C&C 27 Mk V #18
Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba
robert, this is my first season with a Mark V which came with a 5-year old Dacron 135% on a harken roller furler and a 5-year old Dacron loose-footed main which is a beautiful sail. My crew and I are just figuring things out, but right now I would say that the 135 is plenty of jib, even in the light air we get on LI Sound. Our boat speed and pointing are about the same as a Tartan 30-something (PHRF 173) and a Cal 28 (PHRF 189) and a little better than an Endeavor 32?(PHRF 189) and maybe not quite as good as an Irwin 32(PHRF 186?) all of these sailing with 150's. We are still awaiting the assignment of our PHRF by the local YRA. Three of us race the boat, total weight approx. 600 pounds.
I am not positive that my genoa track is properly placed, since even at the sternmost position of the turning block, the angle of the sheet is greater than 45 deg. ( which is supposedly ideal) but I am not moving the track yet.
Re: your mylar- they do blow out if used in too high a wind level too often.
copasetic
I didn't think mylar would blow out. I thought the shape stayed but if you put them in too much wind the blew up!
Wow...if your boat speed and pointing ability is up there with a (assume you meant) a Tartan 10, you're miles ahead of us. There's one T10 in our fleet and the boat's way way ahead.
Yeah I think the 135 is what we need. I got a quote from North on a Kevlar 135, good to 27 knots apparent. not cheap. Not sure if I should go with that or just a really good dacron one.
sorry for the misinformatiion, the Tartan I compete with is a Tartan 34F-phrf 183. A Tartan 10 has a phrf of 126 and I would not expect to be close. Other than a Mark V, a pretty common boat that you might be up against is a J-24. You can expect to be slower than a well-sailed J-24 (phrf 174) but you could compete with a skipper who is new to that boat.
Of course, whenever there is another boat in your vicinity, there is always an informal competition. My experience is that a well-sailed C&C can run down most cruisers who are not as compulsive about sail trim as typical C&C owners.
copasetic
135%? no way. we run a 155% #1 and a 140% #2. The 155% is god up to 14K and the 140% up to 18K easialy. These boats are sticky in light air - you want all the headsail you can get
Distant Thunder
Hull 69
Distant Thunder. Appreciate your advise.
I've a 155 mylar for light air but my inventory goes from there to the blade. Also the 155 does not trim really well but I thought I'd get much more use out of a 135 then another 155. Bit of a budget to mind so the 135 would fill that gap between the 155 to the blade. The 135 is rated to 24knots apparent, which I'd guesstimate to be 17-18knots true.
Couple considerations, if you'd like to comment I'd appreciate it:
1) lake Winnipeg tends to get lots of wind.
2) It's a shallow lake so it gets very short, steep chop, very close together.
3) Are there PHRF considerations based on what headsails we carry.
Thanks,
Robert
s/v Skylark
PHRF- YRA of LI Sound gives 174 assuming a 155 genoa and 1000 lbs of crew. It gives +3 for a 135 and +3 for roller furling and +3 for 700 lbs of crew
Chop- I wish I could remember to power through the chop by falling off a few degrees from completely close-hauled-this technique is independent of jib size.
copasetic
Thanks for the info. Same PHRF being applied to me for Lake Winnipeg/Lake of the Woods.
Re: Chop - I do try to power up and fall off. Actually we do a bit better relative to the rest when it's blowing hard and we have a lively chop. When the winds lighten or the breeze is fresh but off the land giving us flat water, we fall back in the fleet. Don't point as well as we should.
Robert:
Your thread started out questioning the viability of your 153% Mylar Genoa and your 100% Dacron Blade.
As Jim W has stated (and I concur) the Mark V needs as much Genoa as you can handle to get the performance out of the boat. BTW I race against Jim W
My boat has a Square Weave Dacron (3 yrs old) 155 and a 140% and a 110%, we have found that we can carry the 155 up to around 16 - 18 kts apparent, sometimes we will go a little higher with a reef in, but it all depends on the sea state. We have found this year that we seldom go from the 155 to the 140, instead we go directly down to the 110 and a full main. I have come to the conclusion that the boat needs the main for drive in the dig winds >18+ and is well balanced with a blade and full main, we can sail higher and just as fast even in the big waves that come with those winds on Lake Ontario. You may have a different situation on Lake Winnipeg and therefore need more power in the front end of the boat. As Jim has stated earlier you need weight on the rail of the Mark V if you can keep it as flat a possible you will go much faster, that may be the reason we are doing better with the blade and full main as opposed to the #2 and a reef. FLAT IS FAST
You said earlier that your 153 doesn't trim well. Have you had a sail maker go out on the boat to have a look at it? If you are in the market for a new sail/s most sail makers who want your business and are worth the investment, you are going to make, should be willing to go out and have a look. They need to come to the boat and take measurements anyway (at least they should) so why not go out and have a look at what you've got. They may be able to help you figure out a way to trim your 153 better so you get more use out of it and at the same time you can then get the 135 you want. If you could get the 153 and a few more years out of the 153 then upgrade to a new 155 a couple of years down the road you'd be way ahead of the game.
Steve Reid
Still Knot working Mk V #75
My Mk V has lots of weather helm in any amount of wind (150 roller furling Genoa in good condition). How much mast rake are you using with full main in the 16 - 18 knots of wind? Barry
Barry:
I usually carry about 16" of mast rake and I have a fair amount of pre-bend in the mast (about 4"), just about what is called for in the tuning guide on this web site.
Having said that, the boat will have a lot of weather helm, with this set up, if you don't have enough weight on the rail and that weight isn't well aft. The boat needs weight on the rail and you have to work to keep her as flat as possible. On my boat in any kind of breeze my main trimmer is the key person on the boat and I have to be in sync with her. The trimmer is watching the puffs and calling them out and my bow personae is calling the waves, we foot on each big wave and feather on each puff. The main trimmer is constantly working the traveler to keep the helm balanced. If you are the type of sailor who likes to "set it and forget it", it won't work with the set up I use. but if you learn to work the boat it will really pay off when it blows, we can sail higher and faster and it drives people crazy when we do it.
Hope this answers your questions.
Steve
Still Knot Working Mk V #75
Offline
Steve (et al)
Thanks for your thoughts.
Makes me wish I could get a new 155 as well. I'm convinced however that I do need an option between the 155 and the blade. Agree on hanging on to the full main as long as possible. Find I can trim it when flying the blade but can't get the 155 and main well trimmed together no matter what.
Hadn't been aiming to sail the boat flat. Actually thought she was quicker at about 20 degrees of heel.
Definitely have learned that she doesn't like crew in the cockpit. I even drive from as far forward as possible.
Appreciate there's a lot of variables beyond headsail selection. Comes with being new to racing and intent on getting better/faster.
Thanks again for the advice.
Robert
s/v Skylar
(C&C 27 Mk V #18
20 deg of heel is fine - just don't sail with 35. If you have weather helm the depower (more backstay, ease traveller), and the heel will take care of itself.
Jim
Thanks Jim.
I do work the backstay and traveler constantly. Also rachet up the halyard and cunningham when the wind kicks up. Carry far more main then I would when just out with the wife and kids. The crew has learned not to over sheet and to stay on the rail until the last possible moment.
I'm getting better at driving: scalloping to windward. I know we're getting better/faster.
Our downwind game is pretty good. We make time there on the fleet but our weekness is to windward - especially in lighter air. Have trouble getting the boat in the groove and pointing as high as she should. Convinced the problem is mostly with the headsail shape of the 155. If we get it trimmed as good as we can, we're squeezing the slot too much and prematurely backing the main when it is otherwise trimmed well (draft at about a third or slightly aft, leech telltales not falling off.
If ever one of you experienced and fast Mk V folks come around these parts, I'd love to have you out on Skylark for an afternoon clinic.
Cheers,
Robert
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