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I am confused about hull numbers, even after reading the guide. My Mark V has the following ID: CCY27594C585. To me, this means the hull was built in 1985 in the Bristol yard and is hull#594. Now, in today's discussion of the powering of Mark V's, the reply identifies the hull as 575 built in 1987. How can hull 575 be produced 2years after hull 594?
Obviously, there is something I don't get.copasetic
Hi.
No. 575 is my boat, Oasis. Its full serial no is CCY27575A587.</SPAN> I tried to figure this out at the time I bought it, but no clear answer has ever been given. But here goes... My boat was built in C&C's Rhode Island plant, and it is a 1987 - I have the original order form and bill of sale confirming this, and the plate on the bridge deck confirms Rhode Island as its place of manufacture. I was advised that the serial no's from that plant may not relate to Canadian built boat serial no's. In any event, while no one was able to tell me for certain how many Mk V's were built, I was advised it was far less than 575, and therefor it likely isn't a "hull" number as per earlier Mk's. As a matter of convience I use the year of manufacture and no 575 to refer to it (whatever the number means, if anything). 575 also happens to be its original sail no. ....
Hope this helps! Barry
[Hull numbers are hull numbers are hull numbers - if you re-read the Black Arts article on the subject, you'll find that they're not an arbitrary designation on the transom but a US govt. requirement akin to a car's VIN. As to the apparent discrepancies, someone (Larry Bayer?) spoke to the people at South Shore and established that C&C started numbering Mk V's at 500 or 501 for some arcane marketing reason. As to the date/HIN discrepancies, consider 1. misreporting or misreading and 2. the production supervisor at Rhode Island was apparently fired for cause (unspecified, but millions of dollars worth of materials apparently went missing and the Landfill 39's and 48's built there have a reputation for dodgy glass and everything else - so why would anyone worry about a hull number? Unless assigned by the national authority, sail numbers are usually just a reflection of the transom number and have no great significance. - Admin]
Last edited by (2007-09-14 00:00:11)
I have a MKII with a CCY serial number that was built in Canada in '73/'74. I have the original build documentation and customs documentation for the import. I believe that while a generally reliable guide, there are some boats out there that do not follow the standard hull numbering system.
Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx
Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx
Offline
Hi,
Our compete hull number, as noted on the Builder's Certificate (which the previous owner came across and mailed to me recently) is #ZCC27018M84K.
The boat was made at Niagara on the Lake in 1984 and her original sails all bear #18.
Robert
s/v Skylark
(C&C 27 Mk V #1<img src="emoticons/icon_cool.gif">
Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba
So obviously they didn't start numbering at 500 or 501 as thought by admin. The mystery continues!
Barry Oasis, 1987 Mk V no 575
[It's not quite as mysterious as all that. The part I didn't make clear was that I was writing about the Rhode Island plant starting at 501, not Niagara-On-The-Lake. NOL (ZCC numbers) numbered as you would expect, while according to the people at South Shore (who are the repository for all knowledge of C&C's details), RI (CCY numbers) started at 501. As to why numbers might be out of sequence, it is possible that the boat was purchased and the number assigned, but for some reason, building was delayed (something like this was done with early Nonsuchs to accommodate the people who came together to write the original brief to the designer but didn't want the boat right away). The other possibility is, as said earlier, simple incompetence. ("Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." Napoleon Bonaparte) - Admin]
Last edited by (2007-09-16 08:57:39)
Does anyone know how many Mk V's were built at each of the Rhode Island and Niagara on the Lake plants?
Barry
David,
I'm still confused by the numbering on my MKII. Since the boat was built before the Rhode Island plant came into existence (from what I can learn) and the documentation shows it being imported from Canada, how did it get the CCY numbering? Personally, I suspect that C&C may have numbered early boats differently based on the destination of the finished hull not the plant of origin.
After reading the comments added above:
Why do people even care? Frankly, it doesn't matter when, where or by whom a thrity plus year old boat was built. Current condition will mean more to resale and insurance value. Some people own a boat and if they didn't own this boat they would simply own another (dare I say the brands). Something is different about C&C people, or at least the few I know.
I guess that the only issue that I could be concerned about is having mismatched records. If surveys and US Federal Documentation say the boat was made in Rhode Island but the build documentation says that it was made in Canada then there is a very small chance for some red tape in the future.
Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx
Last edited by (2007-09-19 09:21:17)
Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx
Offline
Mike,
Totally a stab in the dark, but do you think it's possible that the whole HIN procedure wasn't fully worked out when introduced and that they then revised it to differentiate boats built outside the US? Alternatively, could it be possible that early HINs identified a sales organization rather than the builder - so if there was a C&C Yachts sales subsidiary in the US, the CCY referred to that company?
I'm with you on the numbers - they don't mean a lot, except when they present a puzzle like yours or the out-of-sequence number we've been kicking around. Sometimes there's a story, as with the Nonsuchs, but sometimes it's just bureaucratic folderol.
I wouldn't worry about red tape. It is a 30+-yr-old boat, plus I presume you have a bill of sale and a state licence to indicate that you didn't sneak in from Nova Scotia via Cuba. As long as they don't catch you sailing around with 50 kilos of white powder secreted in the bilge, they'll probably leave you alone.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Here is some interesting information. Please take this with a grain of salt since it is part conjecture and based on web sources...
The US Coast Guard MIC database shows the CCY number being used for two locations, C&C 1226 White Oaks Blvd, Oakville Ontario, as of 4/83 and for C & C Yachts Incorporated, Middletown, RI from 4/13/78 to 11/6/85. They also show the ZCC number being used from 12/12/1974 to 6/21/2004 (this entry was made on 10/4/1994 proving that the USCG can predict the future with some certainty). They also show XYB for C&C Imports/Holland from 1/27/1974 to 11/20/1996.
Finally I ran across a website of a surveyor in Canada who states that Transport Canada did not officially agree to the numbering system until 1981.
There are a number of addresses associated with these records so my suspicion is that a couple of things has happened. First is that C&C was doing their best to comply with the changing US regulations while this numbering system was being initiated. Since they did not technically have to comply under Canadian law there may have been some "flexibility" in their application. There is one photo example on the surveyors site where the CCY number did not match the US format.
Next I believe that David is right in that the numbering system was actually assigned to C&C marketing groups. In some of the early boats this may mean that the numbering did not have a relationship to a specific factory until the foreign (read non-Canadian) plants were initiated. For most boats this will not have a bearing on how the read the HIN number, just a few of the early ones. Boats may not be delivered in the sequence that they were ordered meaning that some hulls may have been been at the factory longer than others. My boat was started on down payment and completed on final payment if I read the build documenmts right.
In any case I'll rest my head the same as always, knowing that I have a great little yacht made by a bunch of people who knew what they were doing, no matter how she is numbered. Tomorrow I'm going sailing!
Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx
Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx
Offline
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