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Hi everyone,
I am the new owner of a '79 Mk III (first boat) and am hoping some of you could help me with a little dilemma I have at the moment.
Overall the boat surveyed very well, the hull is dry and solid with no signs of blistering. However, the bottom paint is in bad shape - cracked and peeling.
The current bottom paint is Interlux BottomKote XXX which I have been told by several sources is not great paint (perhaps that is why it is peeling so much?). I have also discovered from reading Interlux's compatability chart that it is developed for the "cost conscious consumer" (which I am, it's just that I have found that phrase is often marketing speak for "cheap and not very effective") and it is only compatable with itself (i.e. I can't just sand and put something else over it).
So, near as I can figure I have three choices:
1) Just apply another coat of BottomKote and deal with the peeling next year.
2) Take the existing paint off to the gelcoat by sanding, stripping etc and then apply new Anti-fouling.
3) Same as option 2, only add a barrier coat before the anti-fouling.
Option 3 is obviously the full meal deal, and the most in terms of time and money. It is an investment I am willing to make IF it is really worth it. That's the problem I am having: Is #2 worth doing over #1? Is #3 worth doing over #2? Once again, the boat is 26 years old and has shown no signs of blistering (yet :-). I guess what I am asking is: If this were your boat, what would you do?
Any advice you could give me based on what you have done with your own boats or on your own experiences would be greatly appreciated!
Oh, I should mention I am located in Oakville ON, and will be sailing on Lake Ontario.
Thanks!
Adam Tanton
(Boat to be renamed, just haven't been able to decide on one yet. Turning out to be the hardest part of the whole operation :-)
Hi Adam and congratulations on your new boat.
You have a "sister ship" to mine (also a 1979). I can't tell you what is best but I can tell you what I did. My boat had Graphcoat on it when I bought her and I stayed with that for a few years but about 14 years ago Aragorn's red hull was fading badly and I had her painted with "Imron" at Wiggers boatyard. During the time she was indoors that fall for painting I scraped her bottom down to the fibreglass. There was nary a sign of gelcoat blistering and the opinion at Wiggers was that if the boat hadn't developed even one blister by then, it likely was never going to have one, so I simply went to VC-17.
Still no blisters and still using VC-17 . I fully re-coat the bottom one year and re-coat 8"-10" down from the waterline next year (alternating).
Perhaps, since you say that you have no sign of blistering, you may just be able to do what I did??
If you decide to remove your paint you may want to explore getting a good scraper-- A friend recently had good success with a scraper he got from Lee Valley Tools (Ottawa)-- he said it was superior to a lot of others he'd tried.
Hope this helps, Clare Jordan
Adam: I'll add my welcome to Clare's as well as one suggestion which likely will precipitate debate. Notwithstanding the absence of blistering, I'd opt for a few coats of Interprotect between a newly-cleaned hull and fresh bottom paint. The peace of mind is worth it. I'd definitely not choose No. 1, i.e. another layer of BottomKote to be dealt with next season. I'd strip the BK this fall and then repaint in spring. Cheers.
Ken Pole
Santiva
Ottawa
Ken Pole, Ottawa
1975 Mark III Santiva
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If you have the time, I'd strip right away. However, sanding and scraping are loathesome jobs. Either find someone who will come to you and sandblast (my boat was done at the same time as a number of others for just $300) or invest in one of those new enviro-friendly bottom-stripping chemical kits (obviously I haven't used one of these, but I researched them and was about to buy when the sandblasting option appeared -- ask Genco or Oakville Yacht Outfitters about them).
Clare is probably right about the osmosis issue, but if you feel the need to coat, I had good results with Interprotect 2000. You must, however, roll and tip this stuff to get a smooth bottom. If you just roll it on and don't tip it off with a dry brush, it makes an awful orange-peel surface.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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I guess we're lucky down here on the third coast. The boat stays in the water all year, I have a diver scrub the bottom about twice a year, and a bottom job lasts about three years. I let the yard scrape, waterblast, sand the bottom, and apply new bottom paint every three years. Since TBT is gone, I don't see much difference in longivity of any of the bottom paints here. At current rates the total bottom job and diver scrub costs runs about $300 a year average. Very few of the pre-'73 boats got blisters, and I agree that if yours does not have them by now probably will not get them. After 33 years in salt water Serendipity still has no blisters.
Warren Smith (AKA Tropical Warren)
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
Warren's comment about pre '73 boats not getting blisters and my experience with my non-blistering 1979 boat would lead one to the conclusion that "They don't build them like they used to" . My guess is that in the 60's and 70's when boats were layed up by hand by skilled workers, there were no ( or at least, very few) voids in the glass where moisture could collect and later react to cause blistering. The cost-cutting of the 80's construction methods later made it's effect known.
Clare Jordan
<U>SAIL FOR SALE </U>_
#2 Genoa for 27' Mk.111 by North Sails . Tri-radial cut, Norlam fabric, built 1998-- good shape . Window, tell-tales and draught stripe. Stitching etc. checked ;2001/2002 . #6 Luff tape .
Replacement Genoa is on order for 2004 racing season but there's some cruising years left in this one -$ 550 asking price. phone 613 498-2029 or e-mail <A href="mailto:bosco@ripnet.com">bosco@ripnet.com</A> <img src="emoticons/icon_frown.gif">Brockville)
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Welcome aboard. Hope you enjoy your new boat. Before my 27 I owned a shark, and like most shark sailors I had the need for speed. The first winter I owned the boat I stripped the bottom to the gelcoat with a good scraper (from Lee Valley, I might be the friend that Clare is referring to) then sanded everything very smooth and finished with a couple of coats of VC17. When the boat came out of the water the very next fall, my previously unblistered hull was covered in tiny little dimples about twice the size of a pin head. So I stripped it again, and sanded out all the little dimples (just in the surface of the gelcoat, no deeper), let it dry all winter, then 6 coats of InterProtect 2000E (rolled and tipped), and finished with two coats of VC17. This really gave me a lasting, good looking, satisfying bottom, so I sold the boat 3 years latter and got my 27.
The experts concluded that removing 15-20yrs. worth of bottom paint and sanding the gelcoat opened up all sorts of little pores. The VC17 isn't meant to protect from water, and in fact works by absorbing water. This water must have gotten sucked into the newly opened pores and then somehow appeared as tiny little blisters.
I read the responses to your question and it seems removal is the recommended approach. There is another removal method other than scraping, sandblasting or chemical. Unfortunately I don't know much about it ....but.... it seems some wise ass has invented a very shallow depth, hand held electric planer that works well in removing old bottom pant. I do not know what one costs but I know that NorthShore Boatworks at Bronte Harbour use one all the time. Since you live in Oakville it might be worth a call...MURR
You may wish to look at "The Peeler" which is a tool that will remove paint, gelcoat and laminate if required.
Check their web site. <A href="http://www.claresmobile.com">www.claresmobile.com</A>
Apparently you can rent this machine or they will do it for you.
Bob Honsberger
Burlington On.
Former owner of "Budge" Mk.2
About a hundred years ago, whilst sailing Lake Michigan, we used to get the "bronze" bottom paint from Sears. Best I can remember, that was a Spring ritual---popping the tops off paint cans and opening the Bud's with a churchkey. My then TRITON always sailed great after a fresh coat. Then about 25 years ago I became a salt water guy-----a rude awakening---for a variety of reasons. After being romanced by the TBT stuff---and then jilted by the EPA cops----I've been using Petit TRINIDAD----two coats---two years. Stops most of the bad guys---but not the slimey stuff.
DAWN BREAKER has survived another hurricane (Wilma)----90mph in Ft Myers---lots of springlines----lots of anchors.Dave Tinder
DAWN BREAKER Mk3
Ft Myers
The answer to your question depends on how aggressively you want to race. I don't know the problems faced by you fresh water sailors but here on the wet coast, we have green slime build up regardless of what paint we use. And if the paint becomes too thin, we get barnicles and we start our own musscle farms. If we race, we have to devise some way of cleaning the bottom. I pull the boat three or four time a year since we don't store the boats on the hard for winter.
First, don't use the Bottomkote under any circumstance. It should be relegated to commercial boats and barges only. To continue to use it would only prolong the difficult job that lays ahead.
Consider Interlux Micron CSC. It is self-ablatting therefore does not build up and is the answer for most sailors. And it can be applied if there is still some Bottomkote left. We took the old Bottomkote off LARK some years ago but found it was difficult getting it all off to the point I still have tennis elbow left. It would have taken weeks and weeks to get the last tiny bits of Bottomkote off. Get as much as you can off but you won't have to worry if there are some flecks still left. Use a foam roller or even spray the Micron CSC on to minimize the orange peel effect. It should last up to three years if you don't clean it with a power washer - you can lightly run sponge over it to take the scum off. It'll last less than a year if you power wash it - I know from experience.
Interlux VC-17 is the choice of racers, no question about it. It is harder and can be pressure washed and wet sanded but it doesn't have the anti-fouling properties of Micron CSC so it must be cleaned more often, at least out here on the coast. And, you MUST have all the old paint off as it isn't compatible. Frankly, for the added cost and trouble, I don't really see that it makes that much difference for the bit of around-the-buoys racing I do, as long as I keep the bottom clean and smooth.
My advice to you is your option #2. But do take as much of the old paint off as you have patience and stamina for - meaning 99.9% of it. It'll be hard slogging but worth it in the long run and you will get a better job done.
Fred
LARK
Micron CSC is great for salt water, but overkill for the fresh water hull. Also, the VC-17 gets a smoother finish (for us racing types who care about this). A epoxy/barrier coat, such as Interlux Interprotect, provides the best protection from water/getcoat issues. An application of VC-Tar (not to be mistaken for VC-Tar2, another epoxy barrier coat system) can be used as a primer for VC-17 and as added protection. with application by spray being the smoothest way to apply all coatings, followed by rolling qnd tipping. A Goolge search of 'yacht rolling and tipping' will lead you to a few sites explaining good approaches to that style of painting and ways to improve your results by this method. As Lake Ontario sailors we find the VC-17 is a terrific coating for the final layer. Two coats the first time and an annual re-coat in the spring does the trick. VC-17 'melts' any previous application of itself when applied and so bonds completly with it when re-applying. Just a light sand before hand to remove any junk left by the power-wash.
Good Luck,
Gord.
Hi everyone,
Thanks for all your great advice. It seems the one thing that everyone agrees on is that I should not continue with the BottomKote. So I will strip it down to the gelcoat this fall. I think I will leave it until the spring to decide on whether or not to put on a barrier coat for two reasons:
1) The temperature here in the Toronto area is quickly falling and the manufacturer suggests a minimum of 10 degress C to paint. It's still above 10 on most days, but just barely and I fully expect the wonderful Toronto winter to hit without warning any time now
2) A local boat yard suggested I strip it and leave it over the winter to ensure the hull is perfectly dry before painting. Seems logical.
Once again thanks for your advice.
Cheers,
Adam
I bought this boat in Sept. 2013
I sanded the antifouling off to the Gelcoat the hull is in ok condition (no osmosis)
the keel joint is bad at the leading edge and aft , i opened the gap up with a rotary tool.
using duochem 8107 epoxy and mat i filled the gap pushing the epoxy into the gap with a putty knife , then pushing the mat into the epoxy and the another layer of epoxy over the mat then sanded to fair . I found the rudder blade to be cracked from top to bottom leading edge , i repaired this the same method the boat was on the hard two years i was told so was dry .
in the spring i will apply 5 coats of interprotect 2000e and hotshot racing bronze antifouling .I raised the water line as well using the scumline as a guide
so finally the bottom job is getting done on this boat (it was needed badly)
I stripped with a heatgun the teak & holly cabin sole and polyurethaned finished looks new again . I did rename the boat Katara & replaced the channel and water line stripes (gold & blue)
Now the big job the atomic 4 is done very low compression & no spark ? I'm thinking of going electric if i need to replace it . ok here is my question does anyone know of an engine rebuilder in the Toronto area that does onsite valve grinding & seat repair?
Gerard Warner
Katara, '79 Mk III
Bronte, ON
Gerard Warner
Katara, '79 Mk III
D.Y.C. Ontario
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For Atomic 4 issues and questions I would recomend Moyer Marine's site.http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/index.php
C&C 27 Mk I #4
Clockwork
Port Stanley, On.
C&C 27 Mk I #4
Clockwork
Port Stanley, On.
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Jeff thanks for the link but looking for someone to come do my valve seats and grind the valves . cute club by the way was out there last weekend sanding a hunter 33 bottom and saw your 27 in the yard . only problem with moyer is they don't ship to Canada , you have to ship to an outlet in the states close to you and then deal with customs yourself and a bit of pain with a crate engine
Gerard Warner
Katara, '79 Mk III
Bronte, ON
Gerard Warner
Katara, '79 Mk III
D.Y.C. Ontario
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Any competent automobile engine shop should be able to do that to such a dinky engine. When I did a total rebuild on my 1975ish A-4 about five years ago, I began with a disassembly down to the smallest nuts and sleeves. After an Ottawa shop gad hot-tanked the major components to clean out all passages, they installed valves and gaskets, the crankshaft, pistons (new rings), all gaskets and springs, etc., having come direct to Ottawa from Moyer. I finished the rebuild at home over the winter -- a breeze with the Moyer manual. Good luck. Also went with Moyer's replacement water pump which makes impeller replacement a cinch.
Ken Pole, Ottawa
1975 Mark III Santiva
Ken Pole, Ottawa
1975 Mark III Santiva
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Ken ,
I had talked with Ken at Moyer and they don't ship engines or blocks to Canada . They will ship smaller parts . I found a used engine , that has good compression , electronic ignition , electric fuel pump and freshly rebuilt carb so i'm installing that now . There used to be a guy who did mobile valve jobs and knew Atomic 4's but had closed down . I was hoping someone knew where he went or if another company offered that service to ? http://www.alberg.ca/images/projects/atomic.pdf
Gerard Warner
Katara, '79 Mk III
Bronte, ON
Gerard Warner
Katara, '79 Mk III
D.Y.C. Ontario
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