C&C 27 Association Forum

This Forum is supported by C&C 27 owners like you whose membership in the C&C 27 Association makes possible this Forum and the accompanying site. Thank you, members, for your continuing commitment.

You are not logged in.

Announcement

if you need to reset your password, you will have to confirm the request clicking the URL in the email that you will receive (Just in case check the spam folder)
If you have any problem, please do not hesitate to contact me

#1 2005-10-04 07:01:09

Guest

Toe Rail Sheeting

I need some advice. I have a Mark IV that needs new sails.  We mostly cruise but I am considering  some club racing in the main and jib fleet.  The sails currently sheet to the toe rail and I am reluctant to install inboard sheeting tracks.  Years ago I raced on a Mark II that sheeted to the toe rail and we did very well. We had a hanked on mylar 155  genoa and we had no problem pointing with the best of the fleet. 
I have a roller furlled 140 (+/-) on the MK IV and since the sheet lead position is much further forward (at the Bmax) it cannot outpoint a canal barge.
My 1st question is whether a properly cut number one, sheeted to the toe rail is still competitive or are the inboard tracks absolutely necessary?
I am also dithering on what kind of sail(s) to buy. I know that there are good compromise sails that can be furled and raced reasonable well but I am considering buying a carbon fibre number one that isn't furled, just for racing, and another sail that can be furled for cruising.
So my second question is whether anyone has experience with  a high cut genoa for cruising? Seems to be a reasonable sail to use for cruising because of the unobstructed visibility and the geometry of the sail makes it easy to furl.   It also maintains its geometry when rolled up to reduce sail without changing the sheet lead position.
Your comments are appreciated....MURR

#2 2005-10-05 04:28:44

davidww1
Member

Re: Toe Rail Sheeting

I too have a Mark IV and initially, we sheeted a 155% roller genoa to the toe rail. The club had a white-sails night as well as an anything-goes night and we did alright, even against the full out racers who were slumming on white-sails night (we won a few, we usually placed). We did, however, have to consciously sail so as not to get into boat-to-boat duels, where our pointing ability would be a problem, particularly at low speeds. We stayed away from other boats, and relied on playing angles and a very good VMG.

We now have inboard leads and I think they give us a little bit more pointing ability than we had. That does give us some more flexibility, but I sometimes wonder whether it doesn't just sucker us into doing things we shouldn't (like getting tangled up in boat-to-boat duels when we should be concentrating on more important things).

I suggest that you try sheeting to the toe rail for a season and see how it goes; I don't think that a sailmaker would say you must sheet inboard or he won't sell you a sail. If you're comfortable buying a full-hoist racing genoa plus a furling genoa for cruising, do it. As to the high-cut cruising genoa, don't go overboard. If you give away too much sail area, the boat will be slow in lighter air and you'll be browned off.

David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV


David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV

Offline

#3 2005-10-06 02:15:58

Guest

Re: Toe Rail Sheeting

Thanks for your comments David.  I agree that we worry about pointing angle at the expense of VMG.  I think we get sucked into trying to match the angles of other newer and light boats.  I crewed one evening on a Farr 36 that had the tack angles of a Donzi.  I was surprised to see how many cruising types tried to match it.
My short experience so far with cruising is....that the Yanmar is th best sail in the inventory. 
Thanks again....MURR

#4 2005-10-06 02:47:20

Guest

Re: Toe Rail Sheeting

LARK is a Mk III but I went through the same machinations a few years ago that you are going through now.
First, sails. For cruising, a 140 sail that can be furled is great - perfect for the job. But it's not competitive on the racecourse - much too slow. We have a mylar 153 that we use for racing only and it has helped us place well. We will sometimes furl it on the downwind run and sometimes drop it on the deck, depending on who we have on the foredeck, and both systems work well.
Now, inside tracks. As the man used to say on TV, "don't leave home without them." One reason is pointing, which is better, only marginally with the #1 but much better with the #2 and #3. Off the wind on a beam reach, you will still want to sheet to the rail outside the life lines and use your existing blocks. But on a beat, you will find the tracks much more functional and you can change the car and block position much earsier. One interesting point is that with a high-cut cruising 140, you may want to still sheet to the rail as the block position will be further back than the 153 and on LARK, we have run out of track by then.
Another advantage to inside tracks has nothing to do with pointing or speed. It has to do with aesthetics. Rail sheeting interferes with the life lines and wears out the plastic on them, resulting in an unsightly mess (I pared all the plastic off the lifelines, down to the stainless, which is what all the newer boats are doing now anyway and I replaced the lower life line rope with stainless, too <IMG src="http://www.cc27association.com/f3/toast/emoticons/icon_wink.gif">. And in my opinion, the inside tracks just helps make the boat look like a real sailboat.
I had another C&C 27 owner looking at my boat yesterday, looking for ideas to put inside tracks on. He took digital pictures I don't have a digital camera - all my money goes into the boat - and measurements. Perhaps he can post them for your perusal.
<P align=left>Fred
LARK

#5 2005-10-06 02:48:23

TalW
Member

Re: Toe Rail Sheeting

IMHO if you're looking for consistently good performance in a competitive PHRF or one-design fleet, you're gonna have to bite the bullet, spend some cash, and drill some holes in your deck...  Older 27's are not particularly close-winded to start with, so you want the ability to point and foot as well as the design’s capable of whenever needed – anything less is the typical racer’s lament for less-than-optimal performance…

It's all about sheeting angle and it's contribution to your genoa's shape.  That’s the angle between the centreline of the boat and the line from the sheet lead to the tack point of the sail.  Any sailmaker will tell you the optimum upwind sheeting angle for a #1 genoa on a typical racer/cruiser is anywhere from 7.5 to 10 degrees depending on wind and wave conditions.

Sheeting to the toe rail of our Mk III gives a sheeting angle of about 13 degrees.  Moving the lead as far inboard as possible (within 1-2 inches  of the coaming) reduces the angle to about 9 degrees.  Sheeting angles of your Mk IV would be even greater (about 1 degree) due to the shorter J measurement.  The closer the sheeting angle, the better the twist at the top of the sail and flatness at the bottom as you ease the lead back in windy or wavy conditions.  Skirting the foot of the genoa inside the lifelines will be easier and reduce wear with inboard tracks.  Oh yeah, and it'll also add more stress to your lifeline stanchions as you ease the sheet out...

Finally, if you're thinking about new sails, the sail shape should vary quite a bit depending on where your leads are located.  I'd hate to invest in a high dollar racing genoa (carbon?  you're sure 'bout that choice??), and not have it match the boat's equipment and optimal layout...

The tracks don't have to be long (30" per side should be more than adequate if they're just for a #1), and location could be advised by your sailmaker and those who've got 'em installed already.  If you haven't already, check out "Genoa Tracks" in the "Black Arts" section of this website for info on installation and locations...

Older C&C's need help to keep them moving to windward efficiently to overcome our less-than-optimal foil shapes and sailplan configurations, and inboard tracks are an integral part of that setup to create an all-round performer.

Cheers,
Tal Wolf
Critical Path
1976 C&C 27 Mk III #632

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB