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[This post and three of those following have been moved from another thread. Unfortunately, the forum software does not allow correct attribution in the header.]
Warren............(Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeez one of us is going to have to do a "name change", must be awfull confusing to other readers don't you think?)
As I was sizing up the tank removal this week, I got curious (one of my many faults) about the one existing battery. I, up to now had no reason to test it. I just assumed it would be dead from sitting in the boat all winter and from general neglect (remember, I'm told the previous owner only used the boat once last season). Imagine my surprise when I moved the master battery switch from "off" to #1 battery and all the interior lights worked!!
I then put a volt meter on the battery and it read 16volts.......I was quite surprised. I'm not saying I'd trust it yet........but just surprised that it held it's charge over a very cold/long winter. It does not appear to be anything more than your typical 6-1/2" x 10" car battery.
I'm confused about "start" batteries vs "house" batteries vs "deep cycle" batteries.........
So now here are some questions
Is the "start" battery supposed to be position #1 and house #2 ? or does it matter?.....I'm just assuming some uniformity would be good here, especially if one were to move back and forth between different boats.
Any time I've purchased a battery for my cars, I've always purchased the most powerful model for that particular car...................therefore I'm thinking I will do the same for the START battery on the boat ...........is my line of thinking correct here? Can a START battery be a DEEP cycle battery?
A deep cycle battery, I'm assuming, is for the "house" battery position but NOT correct for a START battery?
Does it take any longer to recharge a deep cycle battery than a standard battery?
Look forward to any and all replies..................Snowing now and expecting 5-15 cms (that's 2-6 inched for you guys in the south)..............Warren
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Dear Canadian Warren,
I don't think I have time or room to adequately answer all of your questions. But here are some:
- Electrical. You need to do some reading. Start with http://www.islandnet.com/robb/marine.html#Introduction and then continue with word searches on browsers like "marine electrical" or 12v electrical management" etc., just skip the commercial sites. Don't be afraid to explore other association websites, some of the classics really have some good stuff: Cal, Catalina, etc. Don't forget to use the search option on this site - try "batteries".
- There's an old saying: "amatures overbuild". If I had a diesel, I would use nothing less than two group 27 size batteries. If you use house circuits, get two batteries. I use an 8hp Yamaha 4-stroke outboard, and I have two gp 27 batteries. By the way, experts built the Titantic, an amature built the Ark.
Nice spring day here, 76F, S wind 10-20 mph, have to remember the hat, sunglasses, and sunblock to go with flip-lops and swimtrunks as i depart for the marina!
Warren Smith
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
Last edited by (2005-04-05 00:42:35)
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Warren,
What type of multi meter are you using? The reason I ask is that 16 volts is a really, really high reading. Personally I've never seen 12V battery with a reading much over 13.5V. If you do not have a good digital multi meter consider picking one up. I'm using a Radio Shack which is about $80 but I do not suggest it (it takes too long to produce a reading). Analog meters will not produce an accurate enough reading to correctly maintain batteries or test a wiring harness.
Pura Vida has two group 27 deep cycle batteries to spin the Yanmar and run the lights. I would not consider returning to anything smaller. I"m not sure if there is a standard for "House 1", "Start 2" but when you operate the boat the battery selector switch should always be on both. Depending on your alternator, switching between banks with the motor on could do some damage.
Finally the length of time it takes to recharge a battery is a matter of of several factors including type of battery, type of charger. From my limited experience deep cycle batteries cannot be brought to voltage as quickly as starting batteries.
Mike
Pura Vida
Last edited by (2005-04-05 00:43:18)
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Canadian Warren & Mike,
I disagree with one thing you say Mike. I almost NEVER start on two batteries (only in an emergency with really drained batteries). I always alternate which battery I use to run the engine each time I start it. My concept is that one battery is the "spare", and on an overnight at anchor I might run it down. A group 27 will easily start a small 4 cylinder diesel (I did for years), so should be no problem for the one and two lung vibration machines. If you try to use both batteries and one is really discharged, then (as I understand it it), the weak one drains the strong one. Also, regardless of the claims of some battery charger manufacturers, I ALWAYS charge them separately; you can't go wrong that way. I wired my low-amp battery charger to the selector switch output side, use the same switch to select charging target.
I agree with Mike on this: absolutely DO NOT switch batteries when the engine is running. You will likely trash the alternator. BTW, I use a cheap Radio Shack meter - has always seemed to serve me well and seems consistent with other meters.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Warren Smith (AKA Tropical Warren)
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
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I just put the batteries back in my boat this last weekend so it is freash in my mind.... Batteries will keep if they have been fully charged prior to winter storage whether you keep them in your garage or the boat. It does not matter whether you have your start battery on switch #1 or #2 as long as you and your crew remember which is which... I have been using combination batteries ( start/deep cycle) for several years now and they have been good for general purpose ie day sailing/racing wiht occasional short cruises ... thus for me either switch though I try to keep #1 primarily for starting.
I do recommend getting the best battery you can afford simply because they last longer.
Hope this helps.
"IRIS"
C&C 27 Mk III, 1975
Hull No 453
Kittery Point, Me.
For what it's worth, here is my setup:
I have a #1/#2 battery switch connecting to 1. an automotive cranking battery (delivers high initial current, low sustainability); 2. a deep cycle battery (moderate cranking ability, immune to effects of deep discharge).
We always start on #1 (that's what that battery is designed for); starting on "both" is done rarely, when the starting battery is low - it's usually a sign that a new starting battery is called for.
Also in circuit is an analogue voltage meter (utterly useless other than as an on/off indicator - must replace) and a battery combiner. The combiner does what the old battery isolator diodes were supposed to do, without the voltage drop and other complications. It senses when the alternator is producing charging current and directs current to both batteries, regardless of the battery switch position, but does not allow current to flow between the batteries. As a bonus, if I need to charge the batteries, I can simply connect the battery charger to the back of the battery switch and the combiner directs power to whichever battery needs it. It really does work as advertised and is a marvellous convenience for about $80US (West doesn't seem to sell mine any more, but the manufacturer is selling off his stock at http://www.yandina.com/index.htm and Blue Sea has an "Auto Charge Relay" for that price).
I used to buy premium batteries (Surrettes) but have been convinced that: a) all batteries are dramatically better than 10 years ago; b) our 6-month layup is the worst enemy of all batteries, premium or cheaper, so I might as well get inexpensive ones with the best warranty. Canadian Tire has a superb, no-hassle guarantee, so that's what I buy (but if I were sailing year-round, I'd probably buy Surrettes again).
I also bought a digital tester (measuring in hundredths of a volt) from Cdn Tire for under $20 (can't remember exactly). I compared it with readings from an expensive tester (measuring in thousandths of a volt) and it was on the money. I keep it in a Ziploc bag on the boat and my only regret is not having bought one for home.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2005-04-05 05:16:20)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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David----I'm still in the age of isolators----but from their website---this combiner thing seems to be the cat's whatever. What about installation? Operation?
Seems to me, with one of these guys, and a pair of AGM batteries, I might outlive my reputation as a battery abuser.Dave Tinder
DAWN BREAKER Mk3
Ft Myers
Installation is simple: two wires to the terminals of your battery switch. The Blue Sea instructions (which are on the site at http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?Product_Id=53476&d_Id=7458&l1=7458&l2=) look potentially a bit more complex because it can do more, but you can just do the two-wire job if you want.
Operation is automatic. When the alternator kicks in, it produces voltage greater than that of a battery. The combiner senses voltage at a charging level and opens the path to the other battery. Once the alternator stops producing, voltage quickly drops back to battery level and the path closes. As a friend once said in another context, "It's so simple, even the most imaginative engineer couldn't screw it up."
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2005-04-06 02:08:37)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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