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Speaking of Tremco tape . . . . I am afraid I will have to attack at least a portion of the hull/deck joint, can't seem to kill the leaks. Lot of advice says don't pull the toerail - but I am running out of options. Any suggestion to a good replacement for Tremco?
Warren Smith
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
[Moved from 'Handrail attachment' – Admin]
Last edited by (2005-03-12 01:47:41)
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This may seem blasphemous in our time of miracle sealants, but I'd stick with the Tremco. If you replace it with new-style material, you'll have to open up and clean the mating surfaces perfectly, which won't be easy, and because the old and new aren't compatible, you'll have to find a clearly defined point where the old can end and the new can start – and since there isn't one, you'll have to do the entire boat (I've seen it done and it ain't pretty).
At this point, your Tremco probably has lasted twenty years. That's pretty good service and I think it deserves a second chance. Just be sure to tighten the retaining screws gently and evenly, so as not to squeeze all the material out, and give them another quarter-turn in a year.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Hi Dave and Warren,
Not to be picky, but I'm betting that Dave meant to say "tighten the nuts carefully and gently" in offering advice about sealants for the toerail. Turning the screws breaks the contact between them and the sealant.
Clare Jordan
<U>SAIL FOR SALE </U>_
#2 Genoa for 27' Mk.111 by North Sails . Tri-radial cut, Norlam fabric, built 1998-- good shape . Window, tell-tales and draught stripe. Stitching etc. checked ;2001/2002 . #6 Luff tape .
Replacement Genoa is on order for 2004 racing season but there's some cruising years left in this one -$ 550 asking price. phone 613 498-2029 or e-mail <A href="mailto:bosco@ripnet.com">bosco@ripnet.com</A> <img src="emoticons/icon_frown.gif">Brockville)
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Clare's right – I should have referred to tightening the nuts while holding the machine screws immobile, though I think that Tremco tape is more tolerant of minor movement than sealants that cure to the surfaces, such as polysulphide or 5200.
By the way, I have been prompted to add that Tremco tape is simply a trade name for "butyl tape". It's available at good hardware stores or industrial suppliers and as you might expect of a product used to install screen doors and aluminum storm windows, it's very cheap.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Can someone tell me if it is safe to remove a section of the toerail without danger of comprimising the integrity of the boat? What holds the deck to the hull - if anything - in addition to the bolts through the toe-rail? I would assume the deck overlaps the hull, is this correct?
Inside my boat I find a lot of the butyl material, gray blobs all over the place. Is this normal? It appears from the heads of the bolts that they have been tightened previous to my acquisition of the boat.
Warren Smith
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
The hull has an inward-turning flange at the gunwale. C&C put Tremco (butyl) tape on this flange, applied the deck, then the toe rail. Machine screws run though the toe rail, deck and flange. It's an expensive way to assemble a boat because it requires two people to tighten the nuts, but it looks better than the outer flange used by less finicky builders. If you look through the brochures on the C&C Photo Album web site, you're bound to find a diagram of the joint, because C&C invented it (or at least sincerely believed that they had - it's the sort of invention that often is independently developed by several people simultaneously in response to a common problem) and they were very proud of it.
All the bonding strength comes from the machine screws.
Tightening the machine screws is a normal maintenance operation because working of the joint will tend to open it. When the nuts are tightened (don't reef them up - you don't need much additional tightness), the Tremco squeezes a bit, and some will come out. Eventually, you'll get fibreglass-to-fibreglass contact and the next movement at that point will give you a leak, so you have to open up the joint and replace the sealant. My choice (see above) would be for more Tremco.
Those toerails are very stiff and I think they must add tremendously to the strength of the boat. I have seen them cut at the low point so that the deck will drain completely, but that would reduce the rails' contribution to the stiffness of the boat. I wouldn't do it.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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If you are going to replace the Tremco glazing tape I would look into a Tremco product with a shim.This was not avalible 20 years ago. Being in the glass industry I would recomend a 3/16 tape with a 1/8 shim . This will allow you to tighten up the bolts and compress the tape to a point it will not squeeze out. This is the same glazing pricipal used on curtian wall glass. (The pressure plates are taped then bolted to the aluminum frame securing the glass to the building). Any glass house will have the materials required.
I had a look at this product (Polyshim II) on the Tremcosealants.com web site and it looks like a good solution (I'm speaking purely hypothetically – I've watched people build C&C's and I've watched people repair this joint, but I've never done it myself). The shim is a continuous strand of EPDM rubber (a "high performance synthetic", whatever that means) and the width of the butyl tape appears to be about three times the diameter of the shim.
The one issue in using this material is that while it probably would be excellent at sealing the continuous edge where the hull flange and deck meet, it does not appear to be wide enough to provide enough material to squeeze around the retaining machine screws and prevent them from providing a water path (I remember the C&C tape as being quite wide and certainly the amount that has squeezed out of the joint on my boat would bear out this memory). If the Tremco pictures are accurate, I'd want to lay a second line of butyl tape (sans shim) along the line of the screw holes to seal them. Alternatively, I suppose you could use one of Tremco's sealants that are intended to seal the butt joints at the corners of windows.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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I do be live you can get this tape in the width you desire. (you would need to place a special order) However laying the tape side by side would work just as well. The shim is quite narrow and is located in the center of the roll. Has anyone had any luck using a silicone sealant along the deck to the toe rail. Try a Dow Corning 999 or 795 silicone. I along with many, have the same problem with the toe rail on my 27. The silicone has worked well to date. It would be nice to replace the tape once and for all. Let me know if anyone attempts such a project.I would like to here back on the result.
OK, again I ask the question.
HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY REMOVED THE TOERAIL WHILE THE BOAT IS IN THE WATER? I would assume this is necessary to redo the sealant - but no one has expressly indicated they have done so.
This is still my first question. Is there a structural integrity issue? Do I need to slack off the rig tension? Will the hull/deck joint remain intact?
Secondly, does anyone else have experience with another sealant instead of the original product?
Warren Smith
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your question about the hull/deck joint remaining intact seems to indicates that you want to re-bed the toerail to cure your leaks.
That won't help.
What you have to do to cure your leaks is remove the toerail, pry open the hull/deck joint and re-bed the mating surfaces. The toerail is a stiffening element in the hull/deck joint, but it does nothing to keep the water out.
Take a look at the .pdf of the hull/deck joint on the Mk V on the Sea Change page. Note that the bedding compound is shown only between the hull flange and the deck, not between the deck and the toerail. The Mk V used an outward-turning flange on the hull for cost reasons, but the principle is the same as on the older boats with the inward-turning flange - Tremco tape is squeezed between the hull flange and the deck by the machine screws with the toerail acting as a monster washer on top and conventional washers underneath. C&C put Tremco tape under the toerail in the original boats, but by the time the Mark V came out, was no longer bothering to do so.
Therefore, to cure your leaks, you will have to remove the toerail, pry open the hull/deck joint, insert your chosen goop and re-assemble the whole mess.
As to your other questions, I can give you information from which you may be able to deduce complete answers.
Can you do this job afloat? I don't know for sure - partial toerail removals are common after collisions and I've seen four or five jobs in progress, but on the Lakes, our boats are on land for 6 months of the year, so that's when we do work like a full removal. Therefore the only full removals I've seen have been on land, but I suggest the answer is 'yes, you can' because there didn't seem to be much distortion of the boat in a cradle when the toerails were off (and on one job I witnessed, both sides were done simultaneously). Since a boat is more evenly supported in the water than in a cradle, there should be little or no distortion. All you need to do is make sure you have good access from the dock.
Should you slacken the rigging? The boat will change shape a bit while the rail is off, and you don't want the tension of the rig to increase the distortion, so I'd be inclined to back off a few turns.
Can you use a material other than Tremco? I have a friend who did her C&C 33 with 5200 and I have heard no complaints after 2 years. That, however, is less than a tenth of the almost quarter-century that the Tremco has lasted on my boat. My concern with 5200 would be that since 5200 is an adhesive (and one that doesn't stick well to itself), if you got a leak, you'd have to cut open the whole hull-deck joint on that side, clean both surfaces perfectly, then try again. I had to do this with a genoa track and it ain't fun. The issue would be similar with any sealant that cures, adhesive or not.
Please let us know how it turns out if you do embark on the job.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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Warren,
A couple of thoughts. I was discussing my deck repairs with one of our local surveyors and he suggested that I slack off the back stay adjuster prior to staring on the deck even thought it is only a 1 ft square spot. Personally I would loosen the rigging. Also you may want to open this up in the "cncphotoalbum" group. There is some discussion about toerail work already posted and it seems that fixing a 33 would not be significantly different than a 27. As for working on the boat in the water, are you planning to move to a floating pier? Finally I don't leak at the toerail or hull to deck joint (yet) but I'm seeing the gray sticky blobs, so when you get started let me know I'll trade labor for the hands on experience.
Mike M
SV Pura Vida
#375
Galveston Bay
Mike M
SV Wind Horse
#375
Galveston, Tx
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That you are seeing grey sticky blobs does not mean that you are about to see leaks. In the early eighties, I helped a friend snug up the toerail of his leaking, year-old 34 (successfully) and at the end of it, we were both covered in the stuff. C&C obviously erred on the side of excess there.
You can start worrying when the deck and hull flange are tightly squeezed together and no more goop comes out.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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