This Forum is supported by C&C 27 owners like you whose membership in the C&C 27 Association makes possible this Forum and the accompanying site. Thank you, members, for your continuing commitment.
You are not logged in.
I have a neighbour in the shipyard who removes his lower shrouds on his CC27 MKIII for winter storage. This makes it much easier to put the winter cover on.
Does anyone have any comments on this practice?
Allan
Cygnus
C&C 27 Hull 518
Last edited by (2009-10-16 12:20:43)
Allan
Cygnus
C&C 27 Hull 518
Offline
Are you saying that he removes the lowers, then stores the boat with the stick up? That makes sense if you're putting up a tarp around a standing mast; I can't see the point at all with the mast down. But while this makes sense if you accept the notion of wintering with the mast up, I think mast-up wintering is a rotten idea.
Boats with masts up are much more likely to blow over; boats with masts down simply don't topple. This would have been a moot issue 20 years ago, but weather tends to be more extreme these days and three mast-up boats that I know of toppled in Toronto last winter. In addition, there is the open question of stressing the boat over six months of winter, as you've got the rig tensions acting on a hull that's already differently stressed by being unsupported by water. Does it make a difference? Don't know with certainty, but I don't feel it's the best option.
Take the lowers off, take the uppers off, pull the mast and tarp the boat. It's not that much work and it avoids a lot of obvious problems, plus potential issues that might not show up for years.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2009-10-17 00:22:40)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Our mast storage area is subject to road salt and other de-icing compounds coming down from the bridge and roadway above and beside the storage racks. Some years ago, I noticed pitting and corrosion taking place along the mast where the stays rested against the sides of the mast. Since that time, it has been my practice to remove the side-stays, backstay and halyards from my mast prior to storing it on the racks. The forestay is buried inside the roller furling, so it stays on.
Since I began this practice, I have had no further problems with pitting and my halyards stay new-looking for years and years. It is a little more effort, but it guarantees a full inspection of the stays and lines at the same time, so it is worth it. I have managed to catch some unexpected wear on my halyards before it became a critical issue. I also wrap the mast in Tyvek house wrap for each winter. This is better than plastic because it breathes and does not trap moisture. All of the plastic-wrapped masts inevitably end up with bags of water hanging down from the rack.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
Offline
Yes, currently I am an evil offender ... leaving the stick up... In fact, one of the hardest part of the process is wrapping the tarp around six shrouds.
Allan
Cygnus
C&C 27 Hull 518
Allan
Cygnus
C&C 27 Hull 518
Offline
This is an interesting posting. The question of wintering a mast-up or mast-down is certainly not new. When I was living in upstate NY, on Lake Ontario, the local marina did not have the capability to haul-out a boat with the mast up and consequently all boats had their masts unstepped and even if the boat was stored outdoors, the mast was stored on a “wall rack” in the barn. With local marinas at the Head of the Lakes and all marinas I know of on the south shore of Lake Superior, it is standard practice to leave the mast up on all boats stored outdoors. Having worked a few claims of boats that “topple,” as David puts it, I’ve noted that some have had masts up and some have been down. But in all cases, the real culprit of the “topple” was improper jack-stand blocking. (Jack-stand blocking is well discussed & described in the Black Arts section so I’ll stick, up or down, to the subject here.)
With the claim interests in mind and a question I didn’t feel was answered, I asked a couple marina managers, yard supervisors and a rigging firm their opinion regarding the issue. To a person, all said there is merit in getting the mast down annually for a thorough inspection. And to a person, all said masts and specifically the standing rigging can be damaged in the unstepping and winter storage process if the operators of the gin pole unstepping equipment aren’t careful. In other words, more damage can be caused from unstepping a mast than from leaving it alone if it’s not done properly. So the answer I was hearing was, if it can be done correctly unstepping the mast and inspecting it annually will yield a safer rig. On the other hand, leaving it up is better than risking damage from a bad unstepping process. If it is solely a money issue, meaning an owner doesn’t want to pay for professional unstepping and is laying claim to the “…it hasn’t failed yet” philosophy; I feel they will inevitably face the “…pay me now or pay me later” scenario. As the saying “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” doesn’t apply to rig maintenance. So, when asked about the issue, my answer is: If you leave yours up, (you’re not necessarily an evil person) it would be prudent to go up the mast annually to check fittings, rings, pins, tape and perform maintenance as needed. If you take yours down, (you’re not necessarily a righteous person) check everything before you put it back up. Because the goal is, you want it up and you want it to stay up for as long as you need it up.
Scott Schoeler, MKIII, "Scot-Free"
Scott Schoeler, Hull 858, "Scot-Free"
Offline
To follow up on the very valid pro and con points which Scott has made, there is one aspect of the issue which has not yet been discussed and after thinking about it I feel that it should be mentioned. Scott has pointed out that having a boat topple during the winter can usually be attributed to indequate blocking of the jack-stands. While this is undoubtedly true, it skirts a couple of key points. The most basic point is that many of us are storing on manufactured cradles, typically ones from the Marine Cradle Shop or something similar. These cradles have a specific width, which is usually a bit less than the boat's maximum beam. Since the cradle is not expandable, you can not really alter the blocking or the widen the stance of the base which supports the boat. I personally have witnessed the damage to a C&C 33 which was stored on such a cradle with the mast up and which subsequently toppled. The hull was split down the side and the boat was written off by the insurance company, which was heartbreaking to an owner who had invested considerable time and money in upgrades and modernization.
The second point is about subjecting the hull and chainplates to unnecessary stress. We have all witnessed the fact that boats in their moorings will heel somewhat when their bare poles are struck by strong gusts of wind. This heeling action eases the loading on the stays, turnbuckles, chainplates and bulkheads. As the boat leans and yields to the wind, the buildup of stress on these components is reduced. However, when a boat is up on the hard and solidly blocked, all of this load is directly transferred to the chainplates, bulkheads and the parts of the hull which rest against the pads. One potential result may be that the chainplates move and work, breaking the seal with the deck and allowing water penetration. Another possible effect is that as the chainplate works it may loosen the bolts which fasten it to the bulkhead or enlarge the bolt holes in the bulkhead. The parts of the hull against the pads will flex, possibly starting some delamination. Whatever the end results, the strains are obviously significant if they are capable of toppling boats which weigh several tons and would otherwise stand unmoved by the winds. Why would you want to subject your hull and rig to such wear and tear?
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
Offline
When I bought my 27 it came from a marina where they stored the boats with the masts up. Although I never found any damage attributable to the mast being up I always liked the idea of being able to inspect it each year while on saw horses. The one negative I did experience was the owner had installed a set of instruments and the cable was continuous form mast head to cockpit. To take the mast down I had take a pair of side cutters to this cable. That was unpleasant.
This is absoluteltly true. If you keep the stck up out of the water, you need to release the shrouds. It will pull the chain plates tight, and in effect pull your boat together and cause delam. Bad bad bad
C&C 27 Mark III 1978
Hull#670
"Shifts and Giggles"
C&C 27 Mark III 1978
Hull#670
"Shifts and Giggles"
Offline
You can see a classic example of why it can be a bad idea to store with the mast up here:
http://www.patraslive.gr/marina/index.html
These boats all blew over in a storm on Monday, March 8th, 2010.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
Offline
Okay, did not see any boat survive with the mast down.
Allan
Cygnus
C&C 27 Hull 518
Allan
Cygnus
C&C 27 Hull 518
Offline
Hey there Allan. In studying the pictures, it appears that ALL of the boats were stored with the mast up. For those boats which now appear to be without masts, you can see the wreckage of the mast lying over other boats or on the ground. At least, that's how it looks to me.
Marcus from Carriden
Mk III, Hull #847
Oakville, Ontario
Marcus Opitz,
Formerly from Carriden, Mk III, Hull #847,
now skippering "Everdina," a 1975 Ontario 32
Offline
The Black Arts article on cradle and jackstand safety was based on an article in Seaworthy, a magazine for boat insurers. That article, in turn, was based on the results of a recent hurricane on the US east coast and in specific marinas that were hard-hit. Boats were on cradles or jackstands (mostly jackstands) and some were tied down to screw-anchors set in the ground around them. I cannot find the magazine just now, but if my memory is correct, most power vessels were fine (tied down or not), tied-down sailboats with mast down were fine, most sailboats not tied down with masts down were fine, but _all_ sailboats with masts up were upset, tied down or not.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Last edited by (2010-03-14 23:19:24)
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
Offline
Do boat insurers differentiate between 'mast up' and 'mast down' winter storage boats when calculating their premiums for those of us who survive in areas with six month winters? Perhaps they pay more attention in hurricane-prone areas?
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
Alan of SMOKE 1984 Mk V 002
Offline
for what its worth, 5 boats toppled during a nor'easter here (old greenwich ct) in march-all with masts up. Two were J-24s which I think went over when a ranger 26 to windward went over. The others were a catalina 25 and a c&C 24. they all had chained jack stands
copasetic