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Hello Everyone,
Thank you for all the replies on my last post on soft spots. I am a new boat owner and this site has been very informative. My crew and I have had a wonderful time so far learning this boat. C&C 27s are truely a great boat, I would recommend them to anyone. We have done quite well for our first year thanks to all the help provided by this site. We took a flag in the first race we entered, at my club I am told that is rare. Now to my question...
I have a roller furling jib. I have been told that it is cut for cruising. I am not totally sure what that means exactly. I am not used to roller furling as I crewed on a boat for the last five years that had a tuff luft system. My class allows me to sail a 155%. I would love to buy a racing sail, but I have spent most of my money on repairs and rigging this year. I am, however, tired of getting beat by this Grampian 26 in my class. I am also tired of not being able to point with a Catalina 27 that is also kicking my butt. My crew and my boat do not deserve this! Does anyone have an old jib that still holds shape on a beat that they are willing to part with for less than a King's randsom? Is there a "racing cut" or "cruising cut" to sails? Other than that, does anyone have some suggestions as to what I can do to get my boat moving a bit better? I have been trying to beat my competition with speed. On a distance race, I win... The bouy races are leaving me frustrated though because 3.5 miles is not enough for me to get far enough ahead on time. Thank you all in advance for reading this.
Sweet Gherkin MK II
To my knowledge, the difference between cruising and "racing" sails is not so much "cut" but size and weight. Most cruising sails, especially for furlers, are in the 140% range and of a heavier cloth as cruisers will hold the same sail from 2 kn to 20 kn.
LARK, a Mk III was racing with a 140% cruising sail and not doing well until we went to a 153%. Now are keeping pace with competitors. We don't have any C&C 27s racing so I don't know how we would do against a "class" boat.
You didn't say whether or not you have tracks for sheeting your genny but if not, that is a must at least on the Mk III. Sheeting to the toe rails will prevent you from pointing as high as you might like. But I haven't sailed a Mk I or II so I can't say from experience.
Fred Butler LARK
Apologies to anyone who has ever owned a Grampian 26, or is, however distantly, related to someone who owns a Grampian 26, but these were once described to me by a cheerful sailmaker as the ultimate rule beater.
Grampian 26's, he explained, are generally owned by superannuated idiots who smoke pipes, sleep in their Tilley hats and fantasize about using their astonishing seamanship to rescue comely maidens from rogue waves. Their racing prowess, needless to say, keeps the G26's rating from being adjusted down from 400 or wherever it currently is.
To win PHRF, then, forget about whamm-o sportboats that the ratings boys will eventually notice - just buy a G26, replace the phenolic blocks and the pool-cover sails, and if you're even moderately competent, you'll be able to sail the thing backwards around the course and collect a bullet on time.
I'm not suggesting that you do this - your 27 is a much more honourable boat. I would, however, suggest that you buy some underwater epoxy and fasten a couple of bricks to his keel. That ought to fix him.
Some sailmakers used to cut sails for a furler rather flatter than racing sails so they wouldn't develop a mass of loose cloth in the centre when partly rolled. Of course, this made them useless under almost all conditions, but I'm sure someone still thinks it's a wonderful idea. Fred's ideas are better.
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
David Weatherston
Towser, Toronto
C&C 27 Mk IV
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You are almost dead on. The Grampian 26 owner smokes cigars during the race, I can not intellingently comment on his sleeping habits or say that he sleeps in a Tilley hat, but he does have a pony tail... and yes, I owe him about 30 seconds a mile. I am almost afraid to put a folding prop on my boat as it would make the deficit even worse. Thanks for the laugh.
Fred,
Can I have some measurements as to the recommended location of an inside track? I am afraid to drill anymore holes in my deck on the starboard side as it behaves more like a trampoline than a deck. Maybe that could help stiffen up that side? I have been looking at the pictures on inside tracks for the 27's on this site. I am interested in doing that, but I need dimensions. Does anyone have some do's and don'ts for installing that track? Any advice on the type of track and adjustment devices? Thanks for your help.
Jody
I have read the thread about your speed and sails concerns and it is true that new sails will work wonders especially if sheeted to an inboard track. However I used to race on a MK II, sheeted to the toe rail, to great success (even against Grump 26's) and I can share some of the techniques we used to increase the boat speed.
Firstly, you have to get the ass end lifted out of the water especially on the off wind legs. Get your crew as far forward as possible. You'll learn to listen for the sound of the water at the transom. Bubbling noises mean drag. The MKIII's where made longer which increased stern bouyancy
Secondly ,and I'm assuming you are doing white sails only, set up a genoa trimming system where you can get more power on the reaches. What we did was simple and it was as follows: take a snatch block forward on the toe rail to a position that gives good reaching performance,(closes the genoa leach and all ticklers break evenly), take a piece of line and a snap shackle through the snatch block. When you reach the weather mark and bear off...have a crew take the snap shackle to the loop in the genoa sheet knot and tension it with the line through the forward snatch block. Keep his carcass forward for trim and good sail visability and have him fly the genoa by hand as if it was an assimetric chute. To jibe have him release the snap shackle and do the same on the other side. Send everyone else forward to give him company (likley they will talk about you anyway). Only the skipper is in the cockpit.
Thirdly, as crappy is that little toe jambed traveller is....you have to use it to introduce twist in the leach of the main on the weather legs. So after each tack send everyone forward but one guy who cross hauls the traveller to weather, then he trims the sails for you easing in the lulls sheeting on the gusts.
Fourthly, try not to move that barn door of a rudder and more than you have to. It is better to power up in the lifts than chasing them. The boat slows alot under steering input so have steady hand and let your trimmer adjust for greater speed, wind and wave conditions permitting of course.
Lastly, unless it is blowing hard enough to achieve hull speed...never go dead down wind. Find a comfy trade off angle and jibe down wind. (you get to colapse a mess of spinakers in mixed fleet racing so there is some entertainment value in this technique too)
On the subject of Grampian 26's....ever notice that the forward cabin line looks lika an old claw footed bath tub turned upside down? Is that being insensitive?...MURR
Seems like the last response (he didn't leave his name - maybe he's anonymous for a reason) knows what he's doing. I suggest you read it carefully and if you follow his instructions, you should do better.
Genny tracks on deck? There are lots of pictures around, as well as descriptions for drill/fill/drill techniques. Try Larry Bayer - he helped me with the track positioning. It is a little technical with optimum sheeting angles and all that, but I'm pleased with the benefit on LARK. Maybe it doesn't improve the sailing ability as anonymous suggest but does not actually say <img src="emoticons/icon_frown.gif">I think it does) but it keeps the sheets off the lifelines, saves chafe on both the lifelines and sheets and makes the boat look more line a real sailboat.
Fred LARK
my name is Murray (CASSIA) ....and I thought I was logged in.
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Last edited by (2005-07-04 01:07:56)
MURR,
Do you have anymore insights on crew placement and the affect on performance: both on the windward and downwind legs? I have a CC27MKII and have been working through different crew placements. I don't yet have the history with the boat to make an informed opinion.
Thanks,
Bruce Peever
Hi Bruce, Scalliwag27 et al,
Re crew placement:--- Keep the quick, helpfull, observant ones on board: Leave the others ashore.
CLare Jordan Aragorn
<U>SAIL FOR SALE </U>_
#2 Genoa for 27' Mk.111 by North Sails . Tri-radial cut, Norlam fabric, built 1998-- good shape . Window, tell-tales and draught stripe. Stitching etc. checked ;2001/2002 . #6 Luff tape .
Replacement Genoa is on order for 2004 racing season but there's some cruising years left in this one -$ 550 asking price. phone 613 498-2029 or e-mail <A href="mailto:bosco@ripnet.com">bosco@ripnet.com</A> <img src="emoticons/icon_frown.gif">Brockville)
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Hi Bruce. We always refered to Crew placement as "trimming for weight" and the skipper would call that after each tack or jibe when all the other trimming chores were done and the lines readied for the next action. This kinda evolved from the fact that there was no one set spot for everyone for all conditons. Everyone learned as we went. And most of the crew weight trimming was needed in lighter conditions.
In light air, going to weather, when you want to induce heel (to reduce wetted surface and get a gravety assist on the sail shape) the crew was sent forward and to leeward and near the max beam. No one sits in the slot. As the winds increase the crew moved closer to the centreline and then to the weather rail as needed. One crew was left in the cockpit with the skipper to trim the sails. When he was not trimming he stood in the companion way.
Off wind in light air we would leave only the skipper in the cockpit and he would shift his weight forward too. The boat we raced had a wheel so sometimes the skipper would sit ahead of the wheel(where the skippers will tillers naturally sit). The crew did the genoa trimming as previously described in my first reply. Many times a crew would sit ahead of the mast to keep the bow down and stern up. It all depended on the skipper's call and how he felt things were going. In heavy air safety was the larger concern so the crew were sent to the high side rail and one crew was always on the main sheet while going going to weather. In heavy wind the traveller would be moved to leeward to de-power the main.
So I don't have a definative answer only that you have move the crew around to suit the conditions and you have to make adjustments in reaction to the inputs from the boat. Listen for the noise at the transom. Do the usual stuff to reduce weather helm. Hope this helps.....MURR
Hi Again Bruce....I forgot an item....if you have a 2 blade fixed prop, mark the shaft so you can stop the rotation with the prop blades vertical. If you tuck one blade behind the strut you can reduce the drag of the fixed prop somewhat. The jury is still out on whether this actualy works but.... it is one of those easy things that you can cross off the list of things to do.....MURR
Re "an old jib that still holds shape on a beat" - forget that dream. I have handled a ton of jibs from various boats (a bunch are stacked in my garage) that are old but good. They all suffer the same malady - stretched out of shape. If you want to point and perform on a beat - make sure your rig is in final shape then get new sails. Personally, I think you are wasting time and frustrating yourself otherwise. No matter how close you sheet it - it it can't get real flat (looks like a spinnaker?) - no rigging changes will fix it.
I suggest you save up for new sails and a stern rail grill. I sailed with a real racing Nazi for a while and he loved to turn the steaks on the grill when we passed other boats with his screaming Olson 30. By the way - this dude sheeted a special cut jib inside the shrouds - about 5-6 inches off the mast and pointed about 5 degrees higher than anyone else on the course..
Warren Smith (AKA Tropical Warren)
Serendipity
Galveston Bay, Texas
One difference between "cruising cut" and "racing cut" sails is the height of the clew off the deck. This is especially noticable with a roller furling jib. Cruising jibs have the sail foot high off the deck, while racing sails come as close to sweeping the deck as possible. The difference is more than the difference in sail area. Technically, the issue is called parasitic drag. It makes a big difference. If you are having a new sail made for your furler, be sure to tell the sail maker that you want a racing sail. The Quantum loft in Toronto made me a #1 jib that came very close to being a deck sweeper, but still rolled up on my Hood furler fine.
Bob, ex-Mk5'er, now sailing a C&C 29-2.
Hi Bob and others,
Lest someone take away the impression that a "racing cut" sail has more area than a "cruising cut" sail ("The difference is more than the difference in sail area") :
Isn't it correct that the area of any sail ( a triangle) is calculated as 1/2 the length of its base times its height ? So if two sails with the same luff length have different clew heights, but have the same L/P measurement, wouldn't they each have the same area? It wouldn't seem to matter whether the clew is located close to the deck or higher off the deck so far as calculating the area of the sail.
Clare Jordan
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